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  • Amazon's TV Show is not following Tolkien's Vision for Middle Earth

     elisha updated 2 days, 17 hours ago 13 Members · 37 Posts
  • Erkenbrand

    Petitioner to the Council : 8 posts

    Amazon is using the Middle Earth lore to create a tv show that does not align with the way Tolkien created Middle Earth. I wrote a petition on this to remove the risqué content that Amazon is putting into the show. Tolkien would never have gone there. There is more about this in the petition. Please sign!

    https://www.change.org/KeepMiddlearthClean

    Mar 26, 2021 at 7:25 pm
  • Otaku-sempai

    Citizen of Imladris : 64 posts

    Would you care to actually make your case for your assertion rather than just make unsupported blanket statements? We already know that the Tolkien Estate has veto power over anything in the Amazon Prime series that they feel violates the spirit or canon of J.R.R. Tolkien’s legendarium. The presence of an intimacy coordinator does not prove that the show is going to have highly sexualized content. Such a position is pretty standard in modern film and television production.

    Mar 27, 2021 at 6:41 am
  • denethor

    Petitioner to the Council : 2 posts

    1. We know nothing about the way Amazon will handle sex/nudity.

    2. Organising petitions to influence creative art is really stupid.

    Apr 1, 2021 at 8:24 pm
    • Erkenbrand

      Petitioner to the Council : 8 posts

      I don’t know man, I’m just trying to bring awareness about how Amazon is doing things and to keep Middle Earth “TOLKIEN.”

      Apr 5, 2021 at 6:58 pm
      • elengil

        Citizen of Imladris : 38 posts

        Except you aren’t because we don’t know how Amazon is going to do it – exactly as the other posters here have been saying. You are making rather wild assumptions without any solid evidence.

        If you want to petition for a change, you really need to wait and see what they are actually going to do and address those specific issues rather than just knee-jerk panic about something you don’t know yet and haven’t even seen and so can’t actually identify what is even a problem yet.

        Apr 6, 2021 at 7:34 am
  • Erkenbrand

    Petitioner to the Council : 8 posts

    Do you guys think Tolkien response would be to sex and nudity in a movie/show based on Middle Earth?

    Apr 6, 2021 at 5:07 pm
    • elengil

      Citizen of Imladris : 38 posts

      The question makes the assumption that there will be sex and nudity in the upcoming show, AND that there was no sex or nudity in Tolkien’s writings.

      I’m not sure you can back up either of those assumptions.

      Tolkien didn’t write steamy romance scenes, but there certainly was non-sexual nudity and non-explicit intimacy in his writings – either of which would easily justify an intimacy coordinator. And once again you are ignoring that the Tolkien Estate could reject anything they felt was not in keeping with the spirit of his writings.

      I fail to understand why you continue to beat this dead horse without the slightest evidence of anything improper in the show, unless it is merely to stir up argument and controversy.

      Apr 6, 2021 at 5:39 pm
      • northerner

        Petitioner to the Council : 4 posts

        He has a point, though. There is a strong chance that the new LOTR series will feature the same sort of sexual content as GoT. If this happens, this will be a great betrayal to the integrity of Tolkien’s vision.

        Your idea of creating a petition for the series to feature no nudity only *after* it happens is also nonsensical.

        Apr 10, 2021 at 2:35 pm
    • Otaku-sempai

      Citizen of Imladris : 64 posts

      There is already (non-sexual) nudity in Tolkien’s tales of Middle-earth. He wasn’t against nudity when it was appropriate to the story being told. There is even incest in Tolkien’s stories (see The Children of Húrin). That said, no, Tolkien would most likely have been opposed to explicit or gratuitous scenes of sex. However, we don’t know that Amazon’s series will have such scenes.

      Apr 10, 2021 at 4:37 pm
      • Erkenbrand

        Petitioner to the Council : 8 posts

        Right, I agree that Tolkien would be opposed. So why not be against sex and nudity in the show and advocate to keep it out?

        Apr 10, 2021 at 4:41 pm
      • Otaku-sempai

        Citizen of Imladris : 64 posts

        Why not? Because we don’t even know that it’s going to be an issue. I don’t see any point in jumping the gun over something that might not even become a problem.

        Apr 11, 2021 at 6:18 am
      • wrymero

        Petitioner to the Council : 14 posts

        1) A petition in this case is not really going to change anything. For every dedicated Tolkien fan, there are 10 ‘casual’ LotR fans who do not really care about Tolkien and are fine with sexual depictions in the said show. From a purely marketing standpoint, Amazon isn’t going to ditch those scenes because they know that casual viewers would still pay to see the same. And in the end their decisions are based purely on profits.

        2) That’s partly why making such a petition even *before* we know anything about the show is a nonsensical idea. You have zero evidence about what actually is going to make it into the final show. There are chances that even some casual fans would be irked by said depiction when they see it, in which case a petition like that may very well raise some awareness and concern. However, we don’t know that is going to happen. And there’s no reason to panic about it since we haven’t even had a trailer yet to indicate what kind of a beast this show is going to be.

        Apr 13, 2021 at 2:52 am
    • jake

      Petitioner to the Council : 13 posts

      What do you think a devout Catholic would think, FFS?

      Jun 5, 2021 at 2:50 am
      • Otaku-sempai

        Citizen of Imladris : 64 posts

        That depends on how conservative or liberal is your Catholic, especially if we are discussing a Roman Catholic born in the 21st Century. Do we know that J.R.R. Tolkien’s personal convictions were exactly the same in 1970 as they were in, say, 1927?

        Jun 5, 2021 at 6:03 am
      • jake

        Petitioner to the Council : 13 posts

        JJR was a conservative, traditional Catholic. Plus in general people become more conservative as they age. I think he would be turning in his barrow if he knew. Even Christopher didn’t like Jackson’s adaptation all that much.

        Jun 5, 2021 at 4:46 pm
      • Otaku-sempai

        Citizen of Imladris : 64 posts

        All I’m saying is that the Church has changed a little since the early 1900s. Not a lot, but it is a little more friendly (or less hostile) towards the LGBTQ+ community.

        Jun 5, 2021 at 5:21 pm
      • jake

        Petitioner to the Council : 13 posts

        Maybe because they’ve expended all their moral authority with covering up abuse?

        Jun 5, 2021 at 9:37 pm
  • omnigeek

    Petitioner to the Council : 5 posts

    My suspicion is that Amazon is going to Game-of-Thrones the show with explicit nudity and sex and over-the-top violence but I don’t think we have solid evidence of that at this point. Hiring an “intimacy coordinator” may simply be one of the legal measures they have to do in this day and age. The forced diversity in casting already has me leery but what an actor looks like or does in his personal life really has little bearing on how well they portray the character (until you get into extremes like the current “Boleyn” casting).

    I’m going to be hopeful at this stage but I have no problem saying right now that I’ll be dropping them faster than a hot stone if they seem to be going down the GOT path and disrespecting Tolkien’s actual work. They probably don’t care since I’m not a member of Amazon Prime — but I won’t ever be a member if they don’t respect the lore.

    Jun 9, 2021 at 3:38 pm
  • elengil

    Citizen of Imladris : 38 posts

    Why is it always diversity that’s forced, while homogeny is seen as just somehow natural?

    🙄

    Jun 9, 2021 at 6:33 pm
    • omnigeek

      Petitioner to the Council : 5 posts

      Because historically, populations tended to be homogeneous. In the case of Middle-earth, which was intended to be a mythology for the British Isles, diversity consisted of Hobbits, Dwarves, Elves, Men of the West, and Men of the North. We know there were Men of the South and Men of the East but they aren’t featured in these particular stories — or indeed, any that I know of Tolkien writing.

      Even in Tolkien’s stories, the diversity is limited or forced. Hobbits in the Shire typically don’t want anything to do with the Big People (and the Tooks were noted to be odd for doing so). Bree is noted to be a special exception of Men and Hobbits mixing. The friendship between Gimli and Legolas was special and unique.

      We know there are conscious efforts in Hollywood to “be more diverse” so they are making special efforts to change the stories and insert “diversity”. That’s forced, not occurring naturally.

      The big complaint I’ve seen from people who say “respect the lore” is that the diversity should be natural, not obviously forced like we’re seeing in current media with race-bending and gender-bending.

      Jun 14, 2021 at 8:12 am
      • elengil

        Citizen of Imladris : 38 posts

        And until we actually know what characters are being played by what actors, the cries of “forced diversity” sound about as rational as crying about sex in a show where we have no idea if there will be sex in the show.

        So a black actor was cast in the show? Do you know what character they are playing? An Orc perhaps? Did we forget they exist in Middle Earth? Is that forced diversity?

        Jun 14, 2021 at 8:37 am
      • Otaku-sempai

        Citizen of Imladris : 64 posts

        It might well be that Sir Lenny Henry and other actors who identify as Black might be playing Southrons or characters of mixed ancestry in the southern regions of Middle-earth such as Umbar. Of course we won’t know that until some of these castings are announced.

        Jun 14, 2021 at 11:40 am
  • elisha

    Petitioner to the Council : 6 posts

    I think you are absolutely right; I have signed the petition we must make our voices heard on a much greater level for this to work. And anyone who thinks Amazon will not make this an inappropriate film let me just say the fact that they put out a casting call asking for extras comfortable with nudity is proof enough. Tolkien personally described his work as “purged of the gross” and this will certainly be violated if we do not raise our voices and object to this. I have attached a link to theonering.net (another Tolkien fan site) that discusses Amazons seeming mutation of Tolkien lore.

    https://www.theonering.net/torwp/2020/10/06/108573-sex-sensibility-amazons-nude-take-on-tolkien/

    Jun 16, 2021 at 4:13 pm
  • Erkenbrand

    Petitioner to the Council : 8 posts

    An intimacy coordinator has been hired by Amazon. If nudity and sex are in the show, how people think about Middle Earth and Tolkien will be changed forever, and for the worse.

    Jun 16, 2021 at 6:25 pm
  • bornilon

    Petitioner to the Council : 4 posts

    If nudity and sex are in the show, how I think about Middle Earth and Tolkien will be changed not one whit, for better or for worse. Elves with brown skin or Haradrim with blond hair and blue eyes will not in any tiny way change my understanding of Middle Earth, nor of Tolkien and his works. These arguments are at best silly, and at worst sinister.

    The Tolkien Estate will look after JRRT’s legacy and vision to the extent they deem necessary. The rest of us are free to like or dislike Amazon’s offering on its merits (or lack thereof) once it’s been presented to us. Hand-wringing and whinging about imagined slights or deviations may admittedly be diverting for some– even many– of us, but it will not change Amazon’s production by a single jot or tittle. My advice is to relax, take a breath, and wait to see what they have in store…

    Jun 23, 2021 at 5:18 pm
  • Lalaith-Elerrina

    Citizen of Imladris : 64 posts

    Thanks for starting the petition, Erkenbrand. Amazon will do what they will do, but for myself, I signed it. Thanks.

    Jun 23, 2021 at 7:48 pm
  • elisha

    Petitioner to the Council : 6 posts

    Well, a spy report was just released on theonering.net and it brings with it some hope on this issue. The situation will not be nearly as bad as we had speculated. All nudity will be sexless and it will be sparse. It will likely be included in a dark way, however. Perhaps in the form of concentration-like camps where the elves are slowly mutated to become orcs by a dark and malicious power. This certainly brings me much hope.

    I have got all my information from an article on theonering.net which I will post the link for below

    Spy Report: Incredible details from Amazon’s Lord of the Rings! Characters, Sexless Nudity & Halflings too? | Lord of the Rings on Amazon Prime News, JRR Tolkien, The Hobbit and more | TheOneRing.net

    Jul 20, 2021 at 7:24 am
  • elengil

    Citizen of Imladris : 38 posts

    We had not all been speculating a bad situation anyway, this is in fact almost exactly what some of us had been saying from the beginning – nudity is not the same as having explicit content. A intimacy coordinator does not imply the worst possible outcome.

    Hopefully future fears will be tempered.

    Jul 20, 2021 at 8:47 am
    • Erkenbrand

      Petitioner to the Council : 8 posts

      Well, nudity is explicit content, and we can’t completely trust this report.

      Jul 20, 2021 at 6:18 pm
      • elengil

        Citizen of Imladris : 38 posts

        If nudity is de facto ‘explicit content’ then Lord of the Rings already had it in the books, so it’s a little late to worry about it in the show. If nudity is de facto ‘explicit content’ then visually we already got it in The Hobbit, albeit in the deleted scenes – it was still filmed and released and the world didn’t come crashing down around us.

        Jul 21, 2021 at 5:05 am
  • wyze

    Petitioner to the Council : 4 posts

    I have no interest in watching this show.

    Thank God that the Lord of the Rings trilogy came out two decades ago.

    Jul 21, 2021 at 3:57 am
  • Arassuil

    Citizen of Imladris : 27 posts

    According the the latest ‘;spy report’, the Tolkien Estate is “very happy” with the show so far.

    The original post concerns are likely unfounded, as I’m sure the tolkien Estate wouldn’t be onboard with ‘explicit’ material/

    Jul 21, 2021 at 4:38 am
  • elisha

    Petitioner to the Council : 6 posts

    I agree that I will have absolutely no interest in watching it should they spoil it with this nonsense. As a religious Jew, it is most certainly not within my values to watch such an abomination. However, the fact that the Tolkien estate is pleased with production so far, I am hopeful that maybe I will watch at least some episodes or seasons and perhaps skip episodes that have been mutated. I also am incredibly glad that Jackson’s LOTR came out when it did and was kept “purged of the gross”.

    Jul 21, 2021 at 6:45 am
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