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Legolas Greenleaf Long Under Tree - An Essay
March 8, 2003
Submitted By Vanimeldë_Lalaith
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Legolas was probably somewhat young, as Elves go. He had never been to Lórien and almost abandoned his journey to Isengard to find out more about the eyes he saw in the "forest" outside of Helm's Deep. Yet, Legolas calls Aragorn and Gimli children. If Legolas has born towards the end of the Watchful Peace, all this might make sense. He would still be young, but would be quite a bit older than Gimli and Aragorn (four hundred and thirteen years older than Gimli and four hundred and seventy years older than Aragorn).
This brings up the question: "Was Legolas Thranduil's heir?" Let's look at the facts: Legolas was sent to Imladris as a messenger, he was allowed to go on a mission in which he could very well be killed, and he brought some of his people to Ithilien (and probably never returned to Mirkwood). With the growing evil in Mirkwood and war brewing in the east, wouldn't the heir of a kingdom stay closer to his people?
Another mystery about Legolas is Celeborn's greeting: "Welcome, son of Thranduil! Too seldom do my kindred journey hither from the North." While this might easily be explained by the fact that all Elves hold themselves akin, rarely do they say my kin. It seems, then, that Legolas is related to the Lord of Lórien, but is it through his mother or father? Almost nothing is said about Legolas's mother, but we are given more information about his father. Thranduil is the son of Oropher, who migrated east from Doriath after its fall. Therefore, we know that Legolas is at least distantly related to Elu Thingol, and in "The Silmarillion" we are told that Celeborn is a "kinsman of Thingol".
By looking at these facts, one might come to the conclusion that Legolas may not have been born any earlier than five hundred years before the War of the Ring, that he might not have been his father's heir (He may have even been his father's youngest child) and that he was akin to Celeborn through his grandfather, Oropher of Doriath. It is also possible that Legolas was at the Battle of the Five Armies. Although all this is no more than educated guessing, it still provides possible solutions to some of the mysteries of Legolas.
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... 24 Comments
That is what I really want to know. Still very fasinating!
Comment by lordelrond#1 - March 10, 2003 @ 4:44 PM
That is what I really want to know. Still very fasinating!
Comment by lordelrond#1 - March 10, 2003 @ 4:44 PM
Vanimelde_Lalaith,
very thought provoking, although it doesn't answer many of the questions. Also, if you read the Silmarillion very closely, it talks a lot about the "Kin Slaying" that was going on. The elves slain were not always the other elves kin, and yet that is what it was called. Very interesting theory, though.
Lordelrond#1,
a lady once figured out approximately how old Legolas was, by what he said. First of all, he talks about seeing oak trees start from seeds grow to maturity, and then rot to nothing several times. This process can take a very, very long time, since Oaks are very long lived. This would put his age at at least 6,000 years. Also, you have to take into account that Legolas was the only one that knew from previous times about the Balrog's, and from his experience you can't think he learned it all from hearing it. The last time Balrog's tormented Middle-earth was in the first age. That puts his age a whole lot higher.
Namarie!
~Alassemiire Arineel
Comment by Alassemiire_Arineel - April 28, 2003 @ 2:04 PM
Vanimelde_Lalaith,
very thought provoking, although it doesn't answer many of the questions. Also, if you read the Silmarillion very closely, it talks a lot about the "Kin Slaying" that was going on. The elves slain were not always the other elves kin, and yet that is what it was called. Very interesting theory, though.
Lordelrond#1,
a lady once figured out approximately how old Legolas was, by what he said. First of all, he talks about seeing oak trees start from seeds grow to maturity, and then rot to nothing several times. This process can take a very, very long time, since Oaks are very long lived. This would put his age at at least 6,000 years. Also, you have to take into account that Legolas was the only one that knew from previous times about the Balrog's, and from his experience you can't think he learned it all from hearing it. The last time Balrog's tormented Middle-earth was in the first age. That puts his age a whole lot higher.
Namarie!
~Alassemiire Arineel
Comment by Alassemiire_Arineel - April 28, 2003 @ 2:04 PM
I am not well versed in the comings and goings of Legolas, and I haven't read the Silmarillion, but you say "...and he brought some of his people to Ithilien (and probably never returned to Mirkwood). With the growing evil in Mirkwood and war brewing in the east, wouldn't the heir of a kingdom stay closer to his people?" Legolas brought his people to Ithilien after the War of the Ring was over, thus no war would be brewing and the evil probably wouldn't be growing too much more in Mirkwood. And about never returning to Mirkwood, his people were leaving Middle-Earth so he really wouldn't have gone back to see anything or anyone, since they would be gone from the forests.
Comment by MerrynPippin - April 28, 2003 @ 3:13 PM
I am not well versed in the comings and goings of Legolas, and I haven't read the Silmarillion, but you say "...and he brought some of his people to Ithilien (and probably never returned to Mirkwood). With the growing evil in Mirkwood and war brewing in the east, wouldn't the heir of a kingdom stay closer to his people?" Legolas brought his people to Ithilien after the War of the Ring was over, thus no war would be brewing and the evil probably wouldn't be growing too much more in Mirkwood. And about never returning to Mirkwood, his people were leaving Middle-Earth so he really wouldn't have gone back to see anything or anyone, since they would be gone from the forests.
Comment by MerrynPippin - April 28, 2003 @ 3:13 PM
I read that he was 2,931 years old in one of the Film Guides by New Line Cinema. HOWEVER: TA 2931 was when Aragorn was born, SO New Line Cinema could just be making this up. Or they could have access to some source that no on elese in the whole world has ever read that reveals the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth about Leggy and his family.
Or not...
Comment by Rána - May 9, 2003 @ 12:33 PM
I read that he was 2,931 years old in one of the Film Guides by New Line Cinema. HOWEVER: TA 2931 was when Aragorn was born, SO New Line Cinema could just be making this up. Or they could have access to some source that no on elese in the whole world has ever read that reveals the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth about Leggy and his family.
Or not...
Comment by Rána - May 9, 2003 @ 12:33 PM
Good one, but I have suggestions, theories, and maybe a correction or two.
First of all, Thranduil wasn't there when Legolas set off with the Company. It might just have been a hot-headed teen saying, " Hey, Dad isn't here, I think I'll go hang out with my buddies Elessar and Mithrandir and destroy the ring." Though Elrond might've had the time to send a messenger off to Mirkwood and ask Thranduil if it was all fine and dandy.
I agree that Legolas was probably not Thranduil's heir, however I think his age is more like 4550, or thereabouts.
Comment by Lothloriel - June 16, 2003 @ 5:55 PM
Good one, but I have suggestions, theories, and maybe a correction or two.
First of all, Thranduil wasn't there when Legolas set off with the Company. It might just have been a hot-headed teen saying, " Hey, Dad isn't here, I think I'll go hang out with my buddies Elessar and Mithrandir and destroy the ring." Though Elrond might've had the time to send a messenger off to Mirkwood and ask Thranduil if it was all fine and dandy.
I agree that Legolas was probably not Thranduil's heir, however I think his age is more like 4550, or thereabouts.
Comment by Lothloriel - June 16, 2003 @ 5:55 PM
I read somwhere (can't rember where) that Legolas is younger than Arwen and she is born in the year 241, the LOTR takes place between 3001 and 3021, that makes her about 2780 yaers old
Comment by Nilmandra - June 18, 2003 @ 7:09 AM
I read somwhere (can't rember where) that Legolas is younger than Arwen and she is born in the year 241, the LOTR takes place between 3001 and 3021, that makes her about 2780 yaers old
Comment by Nilmandra - June 18, 2003 @ 7:09 AM
That's what you call research... and logical thinking!!
I read somewhere (don't know where...) that Legolas is 2,931 years old...
And that makes him older than Arwen...( what Nilmandra said) I might be wrong!! But I want to know just one thing: what is the Battle of the Five Armies again??
Aryel
Comment by Aryel - July 1, 2003 @ 10:53 AM
That's what you call research... and logical thinking!!
I read somewhere (don't know where...) that Legolas is 2,931 years old...
And that makes him older than Arwen...( what Nilmandra said) I might be wrong!! But I want to know just one thing: what is the Battle of the Five Armies again??
Aryel
Comment by Aryel - July 1, 2003 @ 10:53 AM
In terms of the Balrog theory, its extremely highly possible that Legolas' knowledge of the Balrog was simply due to his elven heritage. Balrogs were created by Melkor,a.k.a Morgoth, and Morgoth damaged the elves severely and for that they will never forget any of his malice nor his treachery. The oak tree thing is maybe a bit off, tolkien sometimes, contradicts his own writing, but being 6000 years old, would make him old enough to have fought in the Last Alliance with his father- who was one of the last of his house to survive as they were slaughtered at the Black Gates. Legolas admits in The Two Towers that he has not traveled even as far as Fangorn Forest, which would mean that he hasn't been anywhere near Mordor, making him too young to be older than the time of the Last Alliance.
I also agree that he is not Thranduil's heir, but that still may not place his age over 3000 years old. I really think that Legolas is under 1000 years old.
Comment by Nienna-Elentari - August 11, 2003 @ 7:33 PM
In terms of the Balrog theory, its extremely highly possible that Legolas' knowledge of the Balrog was simply due to his elven heritage. Balrogs were created by Melkor,a.k.a Morgoth, and Morgoth damaged the elves severely and for that they will never forget any of his malice nor his treachery. The oak tree thing is maybe a bit off, tolkien sometimes, contradicts his own writing, but being 6000 years old, would make him old enough to have fought in the Last Alliance with his father- who was one of the last of his house to survive as they were slaughtered at the Black Gates. Legolas admits in The Two Towers that he has not traveled even as far as Fangorn Forest, which would mean that he hasn't been anywhere near Mordor, making him too young to be older than the time of the Last Alliance.
I also agree that he is not Thranduil's heir, but that still may not place his age over 3000 years old. I really think that Legolas is under 1000 years old.
Comment by Nienna-Elentari - August 11, 2003 @ 7:33 PM
lol, ok, I'm thinking i'm a little off because i visited the annals of arda webpage www.annalsofarda.dk
and found this:
"The first appearance of Legolas Greenleaf is in the story of the fall of Gondolin in F.A.510 where he his one of Folks of the Tree, Legolas escaped the fall and made it with Tuor, Idril, Earendil, Glorfindel and the rest of the fugitives to the heigths of Christhorn and some of them to the Mouth of Sirion.
The next appereance of Legolas is in the T.A. where he is an Elvenprince, son of Thranduil, King of the Northern Mirkwood. Legolas was one of the nine in the fellowship of the Ring. His father had sent him to Imladris to the council of Elrond.
Was Legolas of the Tree in Gondolin the same as Legolas in Mirkwood ?. I do not know. The tale of the Fall of Gondolin was written in the youth of Tolkiens life before many things were changed and before the story of the Lord of the Ring but one thing Tolkien never intentially did was using an already existing person and name twice if it was not the same. May the case be that Legolas had travelled into Beleriand in his youth ? and returned in the end of the First Age ?.
No matter how it is with Legolas i will treat the case as if it was one person."
Comment by Nienna-Elentari - August 20, 2003 @ 5:40 AM
lol, ok, I'm thinking i'm a little off because i visited the annals of arda webpage www.annalsofarda.dk
and found this:
"The first appearance of Legolas Greenleaf is in the story of the fall of Gondolin in F.A.510 where he his one of Folks of the Tree, Legolas escaped the fall and made it with Tuor, Idril, Earendil, Glorfindel and the rest of the fugitives to the heigths of Christhorn and some of them to the Mouth of Sirion.
The next appereance of Legolas is in the T.A. where he is an Elvenprince, son of Thranduil, King of the Northern Mirkwood. Legolas was one of the nine in the fellowship of the Ring. His father had sent him to Imladris to the council of Elrond.
Was Legolas of the Tree in Gondolin the same as Legolas in Mirkwood ?. I do not know. The tale of the Fall of Gondolin was written in the youth of Tolkiens life before many things were changed and before the story of the Lord of the Ring but one thing Tolkien never intentially did was using an already existing person and name twice if it was not the same. May the case be that Legolas had travelled into Beleriand in his youth ? and returned in the end of the First Age ?.
No matter how it is with Legolas i will treat the case as if it was one person."
Comment by Nienna-Elentari - August 20, 2003 @ 5:40 AM
Forget about what PJ and various web sites say - Tolkien's own words support your essay.
"Oaks are very long lived. This would put his age at at least 6,000 years."
- No: oaks live an average of 50 to 100 years. The oldest oak is only 1,400. See www.madsci.org/posts/archives/apr2002/1018057224.Bt.r.html
"Also, you have to take into account that Legolas was the only one that knew from previous times about the Balrog's"
Of course he knew about them - he calls them the greatest of 'elf-banes'. But even if he lived in the First Age, he probably would not have seen one. His grandfather came from Doriath (UT 'Hist of Galadriel & Celeborn), and the elves of Doriath neither fought in the great battles of the First Age nor were they destroyed by Morgoth. Most likely, he knows the thing from history lessons and tales.
"And about never returning to Mirkwood, his people were leaving Middle-Earth so he really wouldn't have gone back to see anything or anyone, since they would be gone from the forests."
The elves were leaving ME, but the Mirkwood elves were among the last to leave (if they did leave - in POME, Tolkien states that the Wood Elves simply faded into the forest, and remain there still). In Appendix A of LOTR, Tolkien writes 'In the Greenwood the Silvan Elves remained untroubled' long after Lorien was deserted.
"I read that he was 2,931 years old in one of the Film Guides by New Line Cinema. HOWEVER: TA 2931 was when Aragorn was born, SO New Line Cinema could just be making this up."
Yes, they made it up. It's based on a theory that Arwen's epesse 'Evenstar' refers to her as the last elf born in ME (the 'Evening Star' of her people). However, this is only a theory, and in UT, Tolkien states that after the Last Alliance the people of Thranduil's realm once again multiplied. There is nothing in the text to refute this age, but nothing to support it, either.
"Was Legolas of the Tree in Gondolin the same as Legolas in Mirkwood ?"
That's fairly unlikely if Oropher came from Doriath. In MG, 'Laws & Customs', Tolkien states that by the Third Age, elves did occasionally reuse names. More importantly, 'Legolas' of Mirkwood has a distinctly different origin than the first 'Legolas' - 'Legolas' of Mirkwood is a Silvan name (Letters #211), whereas LT and the Etymologies give us a dual meaning for 'Legolas' of Gondolin - 'keen-sight' and 'green-leaf' that must pre-date the blending of LAIK and LAYAK roots in Sindarin as it evolved in the late First Age/early Second Age.
Legolas of the movie is a grimmer and less playful character than Legolas of the book, and I would suggest that although Bloom plays an older Legolas faithfully, his Legolas loses some of the wonder of a possibly younger elf as Tolkien wrote the character. We know that he has never been to Lorien, though in the middle of the Second Age his grandfather settled at Amon Lanc, barely 50 miles from Lorien (UT, 'Disaster of the Gladden Fields'). Legolas could not have fought in the Last Alliance, since he has never travelled south down the Anduin. He has never seen ents, though they still roamed the forests of Eriador early in the Second Age. He speaks of the Lay of Nimrodel as if it were composed by his folk in a past he cannot remember.
The text just does not support an elf of more than 3000 years, and I would agree with you that it suggests a much younger age.
Comment by eruinovor - September 12, 2003 @ 1:41 AM
i would have liked to know more of his history bt there you go, exellent story
Comment by naryatheringoffire - November 4, 2003 @ 9:16 AM
I'm by no means an expert on the subject, but I thought I'd toss my two cents in to the ring.
In my opinion, Legolas was the heir of Thranduil. Elves did not often have many children. Many did not have any. The need to reproduce was not very strong in them, and because they are beings of fea (spirit) as opposed to being more "body" beings, physical lust was really nonexistant. Save for perhaps in the Dark Elf, and the Noldor. Though Thranduil neither. Regardless, I think the argument that Thranduil allowing him to enter danger means that he is not his heir is a little silly. Oropher allowed Thranduil to go to one of the most dangerous battles in the history of Middle Earth. Besides, you are thinking as humans. Thranduil will most likely live forever. If he is concerned for Legolas' saftey, it is as a father. Not out of concern for the Kingdom.
Also, I think Legolas is quite young. Many of my reasons for thinking so are already presented in this thread however, so I will not argue it. To rebutt the Balrog argument, however, the Elves were very big in to stories and songs of the Elder days. I would think it unlikely that he had not heard Balrogs described, and that he would not have heard of the Balrog that was awakened that terrorized the Elves. So he saw a big Balrog like figure, in a place he knew there to be a Balrog. I think he jumped to the correct conclusion.
Finally, about Legolas and Legolas. In truth, I don't believe Tolkien even intended many of his writings to ever see the light of day. At least not in their present form. In his later works, he borrowed a number of names and he contradicts himself. He reused many names. Glorfindel, Haldir are two examlpes. I think it is abundantly clear from the evidence that they are two different elves.
Comment by Maegolfin - January 28, 2004 @ 9:45 PM
To answer your question lordelrond#1, I've read on the internet that Legolas was approximately 3000 years old. Legolas could possibly be related to Celeborn, but all elves think of each other as kindred to one another. More than likely he was Thranduril's heir and I think the reason why he sent his son is because after 3000 years of war and turmoil you'd think the kid would be responsible enough to take on such a great task even if he would perish. Considering his age, I think Legolas was at the Battle of the Five Armies. He could have been at a tender age when it occurred but he probably fought in it even though he was so young. I mean, the dude's a valiant warrior who could be married and have kids already (sorry to all you Legolas fangirls). He's a mysterious character that we shall probably never know more about. The only one who knows the truth about Legolas is Tolkien, his creator. We can try all we want but we'll never figure out what Tolkien envisioned for Legolas or how old he was or if he was really Thranduril's heir or if he was related to Celeborn or not. All us girls can do is dream that someday he will return in flesh and blood to sweep a lucky girl off her feet into pure bliss and happiness (swoon swoon) ^-^ ^-^
Comment by Menelwen - March 11, 2005 @ 10:32 AM
Wow amazing guessing! Good questions I really wonder if he was in the battle of five armies!
Comment by Alice Alcomb - April 8, 2010 @ 2:51 PM
Wow amazing guessing! Good questions I really wonder if he was in the battle of five armies!
Comment by Alice Alcomb - April 8, 2010 @ 2:51 PM