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A Tolkien Virgin: The Return of the King - Book VI - Chapter 6 - The Journey Continues

October 7, 2002
Submitted By Jonathan

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Book VI
Chapter 6
Many Partings

"All the stone-circle had been thrown down and removed, and the land within was made into a garden filled with orchards and trees, and a stream ran through it; but in the midst of all there was a lake of clear water, and out of it the Tower of Orthanc rose still, tall and impregnable, and its black rock was mirrored in the pool...""Many Partings" indeed!! What a sad chapter. Tying up ends here and there, leaving others loose. I forgot how many people we've met along the journey, how many people there are to say good-bye to. But, as they work backwards along the once perilous road, we're reminded of just how much they've done and endured. It's almost unbelievable that the fear and doom, the nightmare, it's all gone with the ring.

Well, not "all" gone. Arwen's gift to Frodo is testament to that. Memories and nightmares of past traumatic experiences continue to haunt survivors for years. For the rest of their lives, sometimes. I think Tolkien knew this from personal experience.

Yet again there's a little humor provided by Gimli. He and Eomer agree to disagree over whom is fairer: Galadriel and Arwyn. That is, it's funny to see him over-react a little (I'll have to fetch my axe), but it wouldn't have been funny at all if they'd actually fought to the death over it.

Soon Theoden's body is retrieved and they all depart from Minas Tirith: the long road home. The first thing we encounter along the road is the Wildmen's drums. Aragorn says he "gives" them the first they abide in, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Wildmen said that it wasn't his to give them.

They arrive in Edoras and say a final farewell to Theoden, properly. Merry weeps for him and says that he was like a father to him for a little while. It was sweet and sad, but think how much sadder the parting between Arwen and her father must have been. That's a farewell forever, no hope of meeting in the elven "afterlife."

After Eomer announces his sister's betrothal to Faramir, Eowyn and Aragorn share words and get a little closure. That's nice. I can see now that Aragorn cared for Eowyn and was fond of her, but just "not in that way." 

Merry receives a horn--from the horde of Scatha the Worm--it's been a while, so I don't recall off the top of my head, but was Scatha the one from the Silmarillion? If so, that's an old horn. Either way, it's interesting to note another magical item--like the phial of Galadriel. Magic is so subtle in the Lord of the Rings--well, with the exception of the Rings of Power, that is.

Tolkien takes a moment for Legolas and Gimli to make a quick stop at the glittering caves, and eventually depart for their homes via Fangorn. I'm probably not the only one that would have liked Tolkien to dwell a little more on them. I guess it wouldn't have worked in this story, but it would be kinda cool to read some tales about Legolas and Gimli in some kind of adventure together. What can I say, I like those two.

So, Orthanc is destroyed, but new life surrounds it. The Ents have been at work. In more ways than one, too. We learn from Treebeard that the Ents took out an Orc army on its way to Edoras. That reminds me of all that must have been going on in other parts of Middle Earth that aren't a part of the main story. How much havoc did other Orc armies cause elsewhere? Unfortunately Saruman has been at work, too. Very likely he convinces Treebeard to release him. I'm a little bummed, because of course I love the Ents and there doesn't seem much hope they'll find the Entwives. But, then, that's kinda good in that Tolkien doesn't just write the destruction of the Ring and then it's just one big happy ending for everyone. He keeps it real. Keeps some of those loose ends loose. That's just one of the things that raises Tolkien above the rest.

I was a little taken back by the mention that the Fellowship is finally ended, because I kind of thought of the fellowship as ended back when Frodo and Sam took off and Boromir got killed. Maybe this is just the last time the surviving members of the Fellowship will ever all be in the same place. That's worth a mention.

My ears perked up at Celeborn's cryptic message to Treebeard about possibly meeting in the future: "Not in Middle-earth, nor until the lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again. Then in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may meet in the Spring. Farewell." Mysterious and very cool.

Merry and Pippin join Treebeard for another ent-draught and then they're all off again--makes me wonder just how big they've got by now. We say farewell to Aragorn at the Gap of Rohan, where Pippin muses about a seeing stone and Aragorn reminds him of his duty to Gondor. With Merry tied to Rohan and Pippin to Gondor, there's plenty of room left for adventure for those two.

Surprise, surprise, in all of Middle Earth who should they stumble upon, but Saruman. I couldn't believe how hard-hearted and petty he had become. Again, I think about what he must have been like when he was wise and good and Gandalf respected him (something I wish Tolkien would have given us a good picture of)--such a terrible waste.

I like that although this chapter feels like Tolkien is in the "wrapping things up" phase, he doesn't pinch on the colorful detail that I like so much. In the midst of this chapter, Tolkien takes the time to mention the swans on the Greyflood. A beautiful sight although totally unnecessary.

One more thing that grabbed my attention was Gandalf, Celeborn, and Galadriel sitting as stones in council. What they've come through is incredible (especially when you consider their ages), and what they discussed must have been amazing, but the thing I noticed most was the telepathy! I guess it makes sense, but it's the first time it's come up so far, so it just seemed odd. And then, the Lorien Elves are gone.

At long last the hobbits are back in Rivendell and we get to see Bilbo again. But, seeing Bilbo like that was saddening. He mentions the ring, he'd really like to see it again--whether that's just from old habbit or the lingering effects of what the Ring had done to him, I'm not sure. Old, confused, tired, I wonder how much life is left in him.

One last comment--if you want to get home, stop wasting so much time! I know, I know, they don't want to say good-bye sooner than they have to, but with the surviving Orcs on the loose out there and what Sam saw in Galadriel's mirror, I would have hurried back to the Shire just to make sure everything is okay. Once I knew my friends and family were safe and sound I'd feel more at ease going back out into the wide world to visit the friends I made along the journey. But that's just me.

till next time, keep thinking,

Mark-Edmond Howell
Kanazawa, Japan
far(out)

 

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... 47 Comments

  1. I wish Tolkien had elaborated more on Legolas and Gimli, and many other things. I agree about hurrying back to the Shire, then returning to visit friends.

    I'd rather have a happily-ever-after ending, especially since this was such a long story, and without that my efforts are wasted. I understand Tolkien trying to make things realistic, but I think some aspects were worse than realistic, and he only made negative realistic things. He doesn't include enough positive realistic things, such as the Three elven rings becoming free, since Sauron never touched them. Then in real life, we have ways to stay in touch and even get together after we depart, but the characters in the story won't be together again.

    Comment by fishy071 - October 8, 2002 @ 12:47 AM

  2. I wish Tolkien had elaborated more on Legolas and Gimli, and many other things. I agree about hurrying back to the Shire, then returning to visit friends.

    I'd rather have a happily-ever-after ending, especially since this was such a long story, and without that my efforts are wasted. I understand Tolkien trying to make things realistic, but I think some aspects were worse than realistic, and he only made negative realistic things. He doesn't include enough positive realistic things, such as the Three elven rings becoming free, since Sauron never touched them. Then in real life, we have ways to stay in touch and even get together after we depart, but the characters in the story won't be together again.

    Comment by fishy071 - October 8, 2002 @ 12:47 AM

  3. Thanks, for an excellent review, ME. I know the first time I read this chapter I didn't really pick up on the mind-speak stuff. The only thing I might disagree with is your suggestion that the Ring isn't subtle, but that's just a nit-pick. Well done.

    PS Hope we don't have to wait two months for the next review..I'm going crazy here ;-)

    Comment by Shular - October 8, 2002 @ 5:13 AM

  4. Thanks, for an excellent review, ME. I know the first time I read this chapter I didn't really pick up on the mind-speak stuff. The only thing I might disagree with is your suggestion that the Ring isn't subtle, but that's just a nit-pick. Well done.

    PS Hope we don't have to wait two months for the next review..I'm going crazy here ;-)

    Comment by Shular - October 8, 2002 @ 5:13 AM

  5. Sad it is!
    But i like it way it is ( I 'm not saying that you dont ) and i wouldnot change a thing .

    Way thay would hurry home - thay sure didnt expect anything bad will happen ' galadriel sad what could happen' and I dont think that JJR could 'dwell on them ' beacuse after all elfs are gone or going it wouldnot be the same or similar


    Comment by Uth - October 8, 2002 @ 5:37 AM

  6. Sad it is!
    But i like it way it is ( I 'm not saying that you dont ) and i wouldnot change a thing .

    Way thay would hurry home - thay sure didnt expect anything bad will happen ' galadriel sad what could happen' and I dont think that JJR could 'dwell on them ' beacuse after all elfs are gone or going it wouldnot be the same or similar


    Comment by Uth - October 8, 2002 @ 5:37 AM

  7. in the appendecies after the RotK we learn that Legolas and Gimli venture on together and in the end, go over the sea together... Gimli a rare Dwarf to be given this chance due to his status as an Elf Friend... I wonder how many people never bothered with the appendecies and missed these add ons to the story? I didn't read them till my third time thru the books myself. I hope M.E. reads them.

    Comment by no1uno - October 8, 2002 @ 5:41 AM

  8. in the appendecies after the RotK we learn that Legolas and Gimli venture on together and in the end, go over the sea together... Gimli a rare Dwarf to be given this chance due to his status as an Elf Friend... I wonder how many people never bothered with the appendecies and missed these add ons to the story? I didn't read them till my third time thru the books myself. I hope M.E. reads them.

    Comment by no1uno - October 8, 2002 @ 5:41 AM

  9. Being the literary genius I am, I suspect this review was NOT written by Mark-Edmond. It doesn't seem to have the same flavor at ALL as the past reviews does.

    Anyone else feel this way?

    Comment by Nice_Smeagol - October 8, 2002 @ 6:48 AM

  10. Being the literary genius I am, I suspect this review was NOT written by Mark-Edmond. It doesn't seem to have the same flavor at ALL as the past reviews does.

    Anyone else feel this way?

    Comment by Nice_Smeagol - October 8, 2002 @ 6:48 AM

  11. So it makes sense that his response might be more sentimental than what we're used to, too.

    Comment by Winged_Balrog - October 8, 2002 @ 8:28 AM

  12. So it makes sense that his response might be more sentimental than what we're used to, too.

    Comment by Winged_Balrog - October 8, 2002 @ 8:28 AM

  13. This story's not over yet.

    And there are appendices

    Comment by woodley - October 8, 2002 @ 9:12 AM

  14. This story's not over yet.

    And there are appendices

    Comment by woodley - October 8, 2002 @ 9:12 AM

  15. Considering what happens later, I figured that the Hobbits lingered in M.T. until Frodo had recovered enough to travel.

    A couple minor points.
    In Ch 4 Sam says something like "There you are about Ents again, but what they are I can't figure" but then he had to have seen them as the party passes through Isengard, but his reaction isn't recorded - as a gardner, I'm sure he'd have been interested in Ents.

    Yes, Saruman is very petty and self-centered. Note his comment "You pulled your house down when you pulled down mine!" Only no one pulled down Orthanc, it still stands. Isengard has been wrested from him true, but that was a good 15 days before the Three Rings faded and Rivendell and Lothlorien lost their source.
    So, by my house, Saruman means Barad-dûr. He is either identifying himself with Sauron or (more likely) confusing fantasy with reality ("That Ring should have been mine, I should have been master of the Dark Tower, They destroyed the Tower that should have been mine..."). Wonder if, back when they both were Maia of Aule, Saruman and Sauron were rivals...

    Comment by CirionEorl - October 8, 2002 @ 11:29 AM

  16. Considering what happens later, I figured that the Hobbits lingered in M.T. until Frodo had recovered enough to travel.

    A couple minor points.
    In Ch 4 Sam says something like "There you are about Ents again, but what they are I can't figure" but then he had to have seen them as the party passes through Isengard, but his reaction isn't recorded - as a gardner, I'm sure he'd have been interested in Ents.

    Yes, Saruman is very petty and self-centered. Note his comment "You pulled your house down when you pulled down mine!" Only no one pulled down Orthanc, it still stands. Isengard has been wrested from him true, but that was a good 15 days before the Three Rings faded and Rivendell and Lothlorien lost their source.
    So, by my house, Saruman means Barad-dûr. He is either identifying himself with Sauron or (more likely) confusing fantasy with reality ("That Ring should have been mine, I should have been master of the Dark Tower, They destroyed the Tower that should have been mine..."). Wonder if, back when they both were Maia of Aule, Saruman and Sauron were rivals...

    Comment by CirionEorl - October 8, 2002 @ 11:29 AM

  17. It's been nearly two months since the last review, and I'd almost given up, but when it came it was worth the wait - M-E seems to have recovered a lot of the insight he had for the earlier books. It's interesting now to go back and re-read these reviews; could they all be collated into one site when it's finished?

    One point - Whilst Gimli is quite prepared to do battle for Galadriel's honour, he is a good axeman (sorry, dwarf) and Eomer a good swordsman. Therefore one of them would be able to disarm and defeat his opponent without inflicting serous injury.

    Comment by Leander - October 8, 2002 @ 1:02 PM

  18. It's been nearly two months since the last review, and I'd almost given up, but when it came it was worth the wait - M-E seems to have recovered a lot of the insight he had for the earlier books. It's interesting now to go back and re-read these reviews; could they all be collated into one site when it's finished?

    One point - Whilst Gimli is quite prepared to do battle for Galadriel's honour, he is a good axeman (sorry, dwarf) and Eomer a good swordsman. Therefore one of them would be able to disarm and defeat his opponent without inflicting serous injury.

    Comment by Leander - October 8, 2002 @ 1:02 PM

  19. It's actually Galadriel who makes the comment to Treebeard. He "chump husband" (Mark-Edmond's phrase) just says, 'I do not know'.

    Comment by Eluchil - October 8, 2002 @ 2:57 PM

  20. It's actually Galadriel who makes the comment to Treebeard. He "chump husband" (Mark-Edmond's phrase) just says, 'I do not know'.

    Comment by Eluchil - October 8, 2002 @ 2:57 PM

  21. They are travelling in the warmth of the year, but with the companions gradually falling away from one another, there is a definite feeling of autumn and ends coming. The quest had a "happy" ending, but even that has its own heavy losses. Still, I think Mark-Edmond has given a good sense of the mixed emotions in this part of the story. A very good article, and I was glad to see it. I do hope he has read the appendices, too; maybe even some of the background books, but certainly the appendices. Articles on those too, I hope?

    Comment by RunawayRose - October 8, 2002 @ 5:25 PM

  22. They are travelling in the warmth of the year, but with the companions gradually falling away from one another, there is a definite feeling of autumn and ends coming. The quest had a "happy" ending, but even that has its own heavy losses. Still, I think Mark-Edmond has given a good sense of the mixed emotions in this part of the story. A very good article, and I was glad to see it. I do hope he has read the appendices, too; maybe even some of the background books, but certainly the appendices. Articles on those too, I hope?

    Comment by RunawayRose - October 8, 2002 @ 5:25 PM

  23. Yes, Nice Smeagol, I have to say my thoughts mirror yours.

    One thing I've noticed about ME in the past is that he tends to write fairly cleanly - that is, there aren't heaps of spelling errors etc. In this missive there were several, including the misspelling of Arwen's name.

    The style of writing and language used also seemed quite different for most of the top half of the "letter". Very puzzling - unless he did it on the hop and didn't have time to spellcheck it.

    Comment by JudyA - October 8, 2002 @ 6:14 PM

  24. Yes, Nice Smeagol, I have to say my thoughts mirror yours.

    One thing I've noticed about ME in the past is that he tends to write fairly cleanly - that is, there aren't heaps of spelling errors etc. In this missive there were several, including the misspelling of Arwen's name.

    The style of writing and language used also seemed quite different for most of the top half of the "letter". Very puzzling - unless he did it on the hop and didn't have time to spellcheck it.

    Comment by JudyA - October 8, 2002 @ 6:14 PM

  25. I read a lot of comments that question why exactly ME's posts are so few and far between.

    Well, considering that I visit this site almost every day to see where ME is on his journey through Middle Earth, the answer seems pretty obvious to me. I would bet that Tolkien Online gets a TON of hits from people stopping in every day for an article that appears periodically at best. It's a good tactic. Had they been released every day, or even every week, the well would have dried up ages ago.

    I don't agree with the person who comments that Saruman was referring to anything other than Isengard. Saruman seems way to self-centered to lay his allegiances with Sauron at this point. Most of the work he did "for" Sauron was through the delusion that he was doing it for himself. I doubt very much that he would have considered putting up a throne in The Dark Tower. Had he actually gained the ring, he would have set Orthanc up as a new Dark Tower. By my "house" I would wager that he, in fact, meant his stronghold in general, which was now no use for him.

    I also think that the person who mentions that certain people have the ability to use telepathy to communicate is missing the mark as well. These captains are using charisma and force of will. They are respected and looked to as bigger than human. People respond to them for these reasons.

    That's all I wanted to say.

    Comment by bford - October 9, 2002 @ 3:28 PM

  26. I read a lot of comments that question why exactly ME's posts are so few and far between.

    Well, considering that I visit this site almost every day to see where ME is on his journey through Middle Earth, the answer seems pretty obvious to me. I would bet that Tolkien Online gets a TON of hits from people stopping in every day for an article that appears periodically at best. It's a good tactic. Had they been released every day, or even every week, the well would have dried up ages ago.

    I don't agree with the person who comments that Saruman was referring to anything other than Isengard. Saruman seems way to self-centered to lay his allegiances with Sauron at this point. Most of the work he did "for" Sauron was through the delusion that he was doing it for himself. I doubt very much that he would have considered putting up a throne in The Dark Tower. Had he actually gained the ring, he would have set Orthanc up as a new Dark Tower. By my "house" I would wager that he, in fact, meant his stronghold in general, which was now no use for him.

    I also think that the person who mentions that certain people have the ability to use telepathy to communicate is missing the mark as well. These captains are using charisma and force of will. They are respected and looked to as bigger than human. People respond to them for these reasons.

    That's all I wanted to say.

    Comment by bford - October 9, 2002 @ 3:28 PM

  27. Bford makes an excellent point. Saurman was not consciously trying to aid Mordor.... His own efforts were for his personal gain, and any help he offered was coincidental... Gandalf said as much. He was an unwitting servant at best. This leads to my biggest problem with the otherwise excellent film... Saruman was made out to be a "How can I help you Sauron" rah- rah Mordor cheerleader. The movie removes too much of the complexity of the ring's power struggle be imeadiately aligning Saruman wirh Sauron. Tolkien made great comments on the ruinous ways of evil by the interplay between the two. On one hand, Saruman thwarts Sauron by the Uruk Hai taking Merry and Pippin and winning out over the Orcs of Mordor. On another hand. He Unwitingly passes despair from Sauron on to Theoden (thru Wormtounge). The point is that not only is evil ruinous, but it can be ruinous even unto itself. This is lost in the film by Making Saruman a bad guy from the get go in my opinion. Also... and totaly un related. I realised the other day that Mordor is two vowels removed from Murder.. ever notice that?

    Comment by no1uno - October 9, 2002 @ 6:04 PM

  28. Bford makes an excellent point. Saurman was not consciously trying to aid Mordor.... His own efforts were for his personal gain, and any help he offered was coincidental... Gandalf said as much. He was an unwitting servant at best. This leads to my biggest problem with the otherwise excellent film... Saruman was made out to be a "How can I help you Sauron" rah- rah Mordor cheerleader. The movie removes too much of the complexity of the ring's power struggle be imeadiately aligning Saruman wirh Sauron. Tolkien made great comments on the ruinous ways of evil by the interplay between the two. On one hand, Saruman thwarts Sauron by the Uruk Hai taking Merry and Pippin and winning out over the Orcs of Mordor. On another hand. He Unwitingly passes despair from Sauron on to Theoden (thru Wormtounge). The point is that not only is evil ruinous, but it can be ruinous even unto itself. This is lost in the film by Making Saruman a bad guy from the get go in my opinion. Also... and totaly un related. I realised the other day that Mordor is two vowels removed from Murder.. ever notice that?

    Comment by no1uno - October 9, 2002 @ 6:04 PM

  29. I'll make a couple comments...

    On Saruman's house: I always thought of it as a purely figurative phrase...as in "You brought yourselves down when you brought me down." I don't think it refers to an actual building.

    On the Mordor/murder similarity: That's an interesting coincidence, but nothing more I'm sure. Mordor simply and literally means "black land."

    and I too would believe it if we found out this was written by someone other than ME...it just has a different feel and structure than what we're used to reading from him.

    Lastly, regarding the portrayal of Saruman's double treachery in the films: someone had pointed out that the film's Urak Hai explicitly serve Saruman and not Sauron. This may offer us some hope of foreshadowing of Saruman's betrayal of Sauron. Let's hope.

    Comment by DrogoBaggins - October 9, 2002 @ 8:39 PM

  30. I'll make a couple comments...

    On Saruman's house: I always thought of it as a purely figurative phrase...as in "You brought yourselves down when you brought me down." I don't think it refers to an actual building.

    On the Mordor/murder similarity: That's an interesting coincidence, but nothing more I'm sure. Mordor simply and literally means "black land."

    and I too would believe it if we found out this was written by someone other than ME...it just has a different feel and structure than what we're used to reading from him.

    Lastly, regarding the portrayal of Saruman's double treachery in the films: someone had pointed out that the film's Urak Hai explicitly serve Saruman and not Sauron. This may offer us some hope of foreshadowing of Saruman's betrayal of Sauron. Let's hope.

    Comment by DrogoBaggins - October 9, 2002 @ 8:39 PM

  31. Don't forget that Tolkien was a linguist. Here are several roots of murder...from there you can draw your own conclusions:

    [OE. morder, morther, AS. mor[eth]or, fr. mor[eth] murder; akin to D. moord, OS. mor[eth], G., Dan., & Sw. mord, Icel. mor[eth], Goth. ma['u]r[thorn]r, OSlav. mr[=e]ti to die, Lith. mirti, W. marw dead, L. mors, mortis, death, mori, moriri, to die, Gr. broto`s (for mroto`s) mortal, 'a`mbrotos immortal, Skr. m[.r] to die, m[.r]ta death. [root]105. Cf.

    Comment by dragonfire42 - October 10, 2002 @ 12:29 PM

  32. Don't forget that Tolkien was a linguist. Here are several roots of murder...from there you can draw your own conclusions:

    [OE. morder, morther, AS. mor[eth]or, fr. mor[eth] murder; akin to D. moord, OS. mor[eth], G., Dan., & Sw. mord, Icel. mor[eth], Goth. ma['u]r[thorn]r, OSlav. mr[=e]ti to die, Lith. mirti, W. marw dead, L. mors, mortis, death, mori, moriri, to die, Gr. broto`s (for mroto`s) mortal, 'a`mbrotos immortal, Skr. m[.r] to die, m[.r]ta death. [root]105. Cf.

    Comment by dragonfire42 - October 10, 2002 @ 12:29 PM


  33. I believe the portrayal of Saruman's use of the Palantir movie is an extension of material that is already in the book. TTT, Ch. XI, "The Palantir":

    "Who knows where the lost Stones of Arnor and Gondor now lie, buried, or drowned deep? But one at least Sauron must have obtained and mastered to his purposes....Easy it is now to guess how quickly the roving eye of Saruman was trapped and held; and how often ever since he has been persuaded from afar, and daunted when persuasion would not serve....How long, I wonder, has he been constrained to come often to his glass for inspection and instruction...?"

    In the movie, after Sauron told Saruman, "Build me an army worthy of Mordor!", Saruman looked pretty desperate to me.

    Comment by lemminkainen - October 11, 2002 @ 10:49 PM


  34. I believe the portrayal of Saruman's use of the Palantir movie is an extension of material that is already in the book. TTT, Ch. XI, "The Palantir":

    "Who knows where the lost Stones of Arnor and Gondor now lie, buried, or drowned deep? But one at least Sauron must have obtained and mastered to his purposes....Easy it is now to guess how quickly the roving eye of Saruman was trapped and held; and how often ever since he has been persuaded from afar, and daunted when persuasion would not serve....How long, I wonder, has he been constrained to come often to his glass for inspection and instruction...?"

    In the movie, after Sauron told Saruman, "Build me an army worthy of Mordor!", Saruman looked pretty desperate to me.

    Comment by lemminkainen - October 11, 2002 @ 10:49 PM

  35. From what seems to have impressed you in this chapter and from what you seem to have liked, I can bet you're gonna be greatly impressed by the last two chapters. And once you've read the last line of the last page, I think you'll see why Tolkien was a Master story-teller.
    (of course you have probably already read them by now)

    Comment by Fatty_Bolger - October 12, 2002 @ 7:56 AM

  36. From what seems to have impressed you in this chapter and from what you seem to have liked, I can bet you're gonna be greatly impressed by the last two chapters. And once you've read the last line of the last page, I think you'll see why Tolkien was a Master story-teller.
    (of course you have probably already read them by now)

    Comment by Fatty_Bolger - October 12, 2002 @ 7:56 AM

  37. I am thinking that the portrayal of Saruman in the film is inaccurate because of the very reason that he is instructed to build an army worthy of Mordor.
    In the book, he is attempting to rival Mordor. In the book, he created the Uruk Hai not to do Saurons' bidding, but to thwart him. Saruman was unaware that he aided in Sauron's will, attempting only to gain the ring for himself. In the movie, he created the Uruk Hai to "build me an army worthy of Mordor". In the book, in the Council of Elrond, Gandalf tells of his imprisonment in Orthanc and of Saurman's desire to take the ring and wield it to restore order. "Do not trouble to say we, Saruman for you know as well as any that only one can wield it." He was trying to convince Gandalf that they could use the ring to overthrow Sauron. In the movie, in Orthanc, he says "we must join him" Appearing as a staunch ally of Sauron. perhaps he might play out as one who opposes Sauron in the next film, after being his servant in the first movie, but this would be the reverse of what happened in the book.

    Comment by no1uno - October 13, 2002 @ 1:26 PM

  38. I am thinking that the portrayal of Saruman in the film is inaccurate because of the very reason that he is instructed to build an army worthy of Mordor.
    In the book, he is attempting to rival Mordor. In the book, he created the Uruk Hai not to do Saurons' bidding, but to thwart him. Saruman was unaware that he aided in Sauron's will, attempting only to gain the ring for himself. In the movie, he created the Uruk Hai to "build me an army worthy of Mordor". In the book, in the Council of Elrond, Gandalf tells of his imprisonment in Orthanc and of Saurman's desire to take the ring and wield it to restore order. "Do not trouble to say we, Saruman for you know as well as any that only one can wield it." He was trying to convince Gandalf that they could use the ring to overthrow Sauron. In the movie, in Orthanc, he says "we must join him" Appearing as a staunch ally of Sauron. perhaps he might play out as one who opposes Sauron in the next film, after being his servant in the first movie, but this would be the reverse of what happened in the book.

    Comment by no1uno - October 13, 2002 @ 1:26 PM

  39. Greetings all! I've been asking Jon to put up this article for ages now, and finally here it is!

    Although I always read the comments, I almost never reply so as not to spoil later Tolkien Virgin articles. But, this time I feel compelled to speak up and assure you that despite the change in style and tone or whatnot, I actually did write this article. (and no, Jonathan and Ted didn't let some random person select my name as a screen name!)

    Though, I have to say that despite the positive feedback from a handful of people, I really don't like this chapter review of mine. It's so dry. I merely walk you through everything that happened in the chapter pretty much in order and give you a sentence or so of what I thought about it. Although I feel like I pointed out some interesting things, my style here strikes me as particularly boring.

    On the other hand, when I was writing this articIe I couldn't think of any other way to write this review and do justice to the whole thing. This chapter is really quite full of comment-worthy things. I guess I could've stuck to just a few things that most struck me about the chapter and written more on them, but, whenever I did that in past articles, there were always plenty of people complaining about things I'd failed to notice or comment on. In the end, I went with safe, efficient, and boring.

    Also, I'm sorry to say that by this point I'd gotten rather burned out on writing my Tolkien Virgin articles. In all fairness, I think it's pretty obvious that the quality of my ariticles by the end of the Lord of the Rings had really plummeted. In comparison to the zeal with which I started my reviews of the Silmarillion, my Return of the Kings articles are pretty lame, I think. For that, and the increase in spelling errors (Jonathan was supposed to be proof-reading these!) I apoligize. Well, enough said, I guess. I'm still flattered that after more than 3 years (and plenty of negativity on my part) people are still stopping by to see what I thought of the next chapter. Thanks!

    Oh and one more thing. I'd also like to apologize in advance to those of you who are hoping for Tolkien Virgin articles on the appendixes. Unfortunately as I was saying earlier, by the time I got to the appendixes I was pretty burned out on writing my articles, so I merely added a few comments on the appendixes along with my over-all reaction to the entire project to my last chapter review. I didn't take any notes on the Appendixes either, so there's really nothing else left from my Tolkien Virgin days for me to post regarding the Appendixes. SORRY!!

    Again, Sorry!!

    Mark-Edmond Howell
    still teaching English in Kanazawa, Japan
    far(out)

    Comment by Mark-Edmond - October 14, 2002 @ 8:24 AM

  40. Greetings all! I've been asking Jon to put up this article for ages now, and finally here it is!

    Although I always read the comments, I almost never reply so as not to spoil later Tolkien Virgin articles. But, this time I feel compelled to speak up and assure you that despite the change in style and tone or whatnot, I actually did write this article. (and no, Jonathan and Ted didn't let some random person select my name as a screen name!)

    Though, I have to say that despite the positive feedback from a handful of people, I really don't like this chapter review of mine. It's so dry. I merely walk you through everything that happened in the chapter pretty much in order and give you a sentence or so of what I thought about it. Although I feel like I pointed out some interesting things, my style here strikes me as particularly boring.

    On the other hand, when I was writing this articIe I couldn't think of any other way to write this review and do justice to the whole thing. This chapter is really quite full of comment-worthy things. I guess I could've stuck to just a few things that most struck me about the chapter and written more on them, but, whenever I did that in past articles, there were always plenty of people complaining about things I'd failed to notice or comment on. In the end, I went with safe, efficient, and boring.

    Also, I'm sorry to say that by this point I'd gotten rather burned out on writing my Tolkien Virgin articles. In all fairness, I think it's pretty obvious that the quality of my ariticles by the end of the Lord of the Rings had really plummeted. In comparison to the zeal with which I started my reviews of the Silmarillion, my Return of the Kings articles are pretty lame, I think. For that, and the increase in spelling errors (Jonathan was supposed to be proof-reading these!) I apoligize. Well, enough said, I guess. I'm still flattered that after more than 3 years (and plenty of negativity on my part) people are still stopping by to see what I thought of the next chapter. Thanks!

    Oh and one more thing. I'd also like to apologize in advance to those of you who are hoping for Tolkien Virgin articles on the appendixes. Unfortunately as I was saying earlier, by the time I got to the appendixes I was pretty burned out on writing my articles, so I merely added a few comments on the appendixes along with my over-all reaction to the entire project to my last chapter review. I didn't take any notes on the Appendixes either, so there's really nothing else left from my Tolkien Virgin days for me to post regarding the Appendixes. SORRY!!

    Again, Sorry!!

    Mark-Edmond Howell
    still teaching English in Kanazawa, Japan
    far(out)

    Comment by Mark-Edmond - October 14, 2002 @ 8:24 AM

  41. Mark-Edmund,
    I have appreciated your articles. Even with spelling errors, inconsistancy in quality, negativity at times, and the other things you apologize for, it has been refreshing and even eye-opening to read someone's first reaction to Tolkien's works. Thank you for that massive undertaking.

    I am looking forward to your review of the last chapter.

    Comment by PstTBG - November 1, 2002 @ 7:37 AM

  42. Mark-Edmund,
    I have appreciated your articles. Even with spelling errors, inconsistancy in quality, negativity at times, and the other things you apologize for, it has been refreshing and even eye-opening to read someone's first reaction to Tolkien's works. Thank you for that massive undertaking.

    I am looking forward to your review of the last chapter.

    Comment by PstTBG - November 1, 2002 @ 7:37 AM

  43. FOTR Saruman to Galdalf " We may join with that Power . . . As the Power grows, its proved friends will also grow; . . .Gandalf, [he wispered.] Why not? The Ruling Ring? If we could command that, then the Power would pass to us."

    In TTT Sauron addressing Pippin, (who he thinks is Saruman). "So you have come back? Why have you neglected to report for so long?"

    Galdalf talking about Saruman in TTT "So whether he will or no, he will appear to be a rebel. Yet he rejected us so as to avoid that very thing!"

    The mouth of Sauron in TRTK "But they shall help rebuild Isengard which they have wantonly destroyed, and that shall be Sauron's, and there his lieutenant shall dwell: not Saruman, but one more worthy of trust"

    It's obvious that Saruman was playing a double game. Out for himself while trying to appear to Sauron as the loyal servant. So the movie does not err in having Sauron order Saruman about. Yet if P Jackson finds a way of bringing out the double duplicity of Saruman's character, it will certainly be a capper.

    Comment by FlamerOfUdun - December 17, 2002 @ 9:04 PM

  44. FOTR Saruman to Galdalf " We may join with that Power . . . As the Power grows, its proved friends will also grow; . . .Gandalf, [he wispered.] Why not? The Ruling Ring? If we could command that, then the Power would pass to us."

    In TTT Sauron addressing Pippin, (who he thinks is Saruman). "So you have come back? Why have you neglected to report for so long?"

    Galdalf talking about Saruman in TTT "So whether he will or no, he will appear to be a rebel. Yet he rejected us so as to avoid that very thing!"

    The mouth of Sauron in TRTK "But they shall help rebuild Isengard which they have wantonly destroyed, and that shall be Sauron's, and there his lieutenant shall dwell: not Saruman, but one more worthy of trust"

    It's obvious that Saruman was playing a double game. Out for himself while trying to appear to Sauron as the loyal servant. So the movie does not err in having Sauron order Saruman about. Yet if P Jackson finds a way of bringing out the double duplicity of Saruman's character, it will certainly be a capper.

    Comment by FlamerOfUdun - December 17, 2002 @ 9:04 PM

  45. The dragon in the Silmarillion Mark is refering to is actually Glaurung, the first of the dragons of Morgoth, the father of dragons, slain by Turin at Cabed-en-Aras.

    I can remember nor find any other reference to Scatha the Worm other than in the chapter Many Partings.

    Comment by maxkazar - December 18, 2002 @ 4:32 PM

  46. The dragon in the Silmarillion Mark is refering to is actually Glaurung, the first of the dragons of Morgoth, the father of dragons, slain by Turin at Cabed-en-Aras.

    I can remember nor find any other reference to Scatha the Worm other than in the chapter Many Partings.

    Comment by maxkazar - December 18, 2002 @ 4:32 PM

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