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A Tolkien Virgin: The Return of the King - Book VI - Chapter 3 - The Journey Continues
June 21, 2002
Submitted By Jonathan
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 "Wicked masster!" it hissed. "Wicked masster cheats us; cheates Smeagol, gollum..." |
Chapter 3
Mount Doom
Wow. Wow. Wow.
So, I'm a bit speechless. Gollum and the One Ring reunited at last in the fires of Orodruin, both destroyed. It's mildly disappointing to see now, as I suspected when he betrayed Frodo and Sam to Shelob, that there was indeed no hope for Gollum, no redemption. Unless his unwitting destruction of the Ring is some kind of redemption.
And now finally, I'm amazed that the Ring is gone. It was a lot quicker than I had suspected before starting Book VI. Not that I could have born much more of the misery of Chapters 1-3. The Quest is done. Completed. And the questions I had about what will happen when the ring is destroyed are on the brink of answers, I hope.
I'm not too worried for Frodo and Sam, actually. They have to live on to tell the story. But, I'm anxious to see what happens next, so I'm going to read on before I comment further.
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... 40 Comments
After waiting a month for the comments on this huge and pivotal chapter, thats all I get?!?!! The language and description in this chapter is beautiful, biblical, and apocalyptic and all ME has to say a few paragraphs? There's plenty to say without waiting to see what happens in the next few chapters.
Jonathan, ME, whoEVER is in charge of posting these articles give me the rest of them, now!! I know they're out there. I know ME isn't really reading this slowly.
3 for the comments, but -1 for the time it took to post these three paragraphs.
Comment by eriol - June 21, 2002 @ 5:53 AM
After waiting a month for the comments on this huge and pivotal chapter, thats all I get?!?!! The language and description in this chapter is beautiful, biblical, and apocalyptic and all ME has to say a few paragraphs? There's plenty to say without waiting to see what happens in the next few chapters.
Jonathan, ME, whoEVER is in charge of posting these articles give me the rest of them, now!! I know they're out there. I know ME isn't really reading this slowly.
3 for the comments, but -1 for the time it took to post these three paragraphs.
Comment by eriol - June 21, 2002 @ 5:53 AM
A couple wows and disappointment that Gollum was beyond redemption? No coments on the final arduous climb up Mount Doom? No final understanding of what had been happening to Frodo's will? No surprise that, in the end, Frodo FAILED in his quest and only Gollum's intervention saved Middle-earth from tyranny?
I'm finding it harder and harder to believe that these more recent installments are being written by the same person who showed so much insight reading The Silmarillion and the Hobbit.
I can only hope that, once you're done the series, M-E, you will re-read the whole thing, and this time read your TV postings and the responses as you go along. You may even want to post some responses to yourself.
Comment by Shular - June 21, 2002 @ 6:01 AM
A couple wows and disappointment that Gollum was beyond redemption? No coments on the final arduous climb up Mount Doom? No final understanding of what had been happening to Frodo's will? No surprise that, in the end, Frodo FAILED in his quest and only Gollum's intervention saved Middle-earth from tyranny?
I'm finding it harder and harder to believe that these more recent installments are being written by the same person who showed so much insight reading The Silmarillion and the Hobbit.
I can only hope that, once you're done the series, M-E, you will re-read the whole thing, and this time read your TV postings and the responses as you go along. You may even want to post some responses to yourself.
Comment by Shular - June 21, 2002 @ 6:01 AM
The first time I read LOTR there were a couple of places where I was so overwhelmed by what I read that I would not have been able to express my feelings in any sort of comprehensible way; at least not at the time.
As for the time it took to post this chapter's comments, I'm sure ME has a life outside LOTR -- even if we don't (just kidding).
Comment by chendry - June 21, 2002 @ 6:24 AM
The first time I read LOTR there were a couple of places where I was so overwhelmed by what I read that I would not have been able to express my feelings in any sort of comprehensible way; at least not at the time.
As for the time it took to post this chapter's comments, I'm sure ME has a life outside LOTR -- even if we don't (just kidding).
Comment by chendry - June 21, 2002 @ 6:24 AM
I too am a bit disappointed in the latest despatch from ME, simply because it doesn't give the same level of insight into the reader's perspectives as the story unfolds to them for the first time (and which he has so excellently managed to date).
I remember several aspects going through my mind as I read this chapter for the first time:
Surprise at the manner of destruction of the Ring, even though lots of hints have been given throughout
Complete surprise that Frodo fails in his Quest right at the end
The description of the fall of the Dark Tower
The one description JRRT gives us in all of the book as to Sauron's actual thoughts
And what would have happened if Gollum hadn't returned at that exact point? What would / could Sam have done, other that try to grab Frodo and pull him over the brink?
I too had hoped for Gollum to come out alive and well - obviously too far under the influence of the Ring in the end. And what ultimately does it mean for Frodo, who (like Sauron long ago) has had the Ring torn from him by force? Would he end up like Gollum did, after he lost the Ring to Bilbo?
All in all, I found this chapter exciting, a complete surprise, and quite thought provoking. And like ME, what I wanted to do immediately was read on. So I hope when ME gets to (got to) say the end of the next Chapter, he will share a little more of his perceptions.
Comment by davidw - June 21, 2002 @ 6:49 AM
I too am a bit disappointed in the latest despatch from ME, simply because it doesn't give the same level of insight into the reader's perspectives as the story unfolds to them for the first time (and which he has so excellently managed to date).
I remember several aspects going through my mind as I read this chapter for the first time:
Surprise at the manner of destruction of the Ring, even though lots of hints have been given throughout
Complete surprise that Frodo fails in his Quest right at the end
The description of the fall of the Dark Tower
The one description JRRT gives us in all of the book as to Sauron's actual thoughts
And what would have happened if Gollum hadn't returned at that exact point? What would / could Sam have done, other that try to grab Frodo and pull him over the brink?
I too had hoped for Gollum to come out alive and well - obviously too far under the influence of the Ring in the end. And what ultimately does it mean for Frodo, who (like Sauron long ago) has had the Ring torn from him by force? Would he end up like Gollum did, after he lost the Ring to Bilbo?
All in all, I found this chapter exciting, a complete surprise, and quite thought provoking. And like ME, what I wanted to do immediately was read on. So I hope when ME gets to (got to) say the end of the next Chapter, he will share a little more of his perceptions.
Comment by davidw - June 21, 2002 @ 6:49 AM
I can identify with Tomday's post. When I was much younger and reading the book for the first time, I was overjoyed to get to this chapter - to know that FINALLY we could get past all of Frodo's pain, suffering etc. and finally enjoy some "glory and trumpets".
How things change. Now, the last few chapters of TTT and the first three of book VI are among those I cherish the most. They are almost too deep, pivotal, significant, for anything like a quick or casual review.
And it seems to me here that is almost as if ME wanted to avoid side step the BIG questions either; being faced with turning in either a quickie reaction or a lengthy term paper, he attempts to do neither! IT is frustrating for us readers looking to him for his insights though.
Oh well - at least his reaction to the present chapter is a LOT more positive than his to the last one!
Comment by Marea - June 21, 2002 @ 9:23 AM
I can identify with Tomday's post. When I was much younger and reading the book for the first time, I was overjoyed to get to this chapter - to know that FINALLY we could get past all of Frodo's pain, suffering etc. and finally enjoy some "glory and trumpets".
How things change. Now, the last few chapters of TTT and the first three of book VI are among those I cherish the most. They are almost too deep, pivotal, significant, for anything like a quick or casual review.
And it seems to me here that is almost as if ME wanted to avoid side step the BIG questions either; being faced with turning in either a quickie reaction or a lengthy term paper, he attempts to do neither! IT is frustrating for us readers looking to him for his insights though.
Oh well - at least his reaction to the present chapter is a LOT more positive than his to the last one!
Comment by Marea - June 21, 2002 @ 9:23 AM
When I read that chapter I felt Frodo failed too... but Tolkien didn't. Tolkien never saw Frodo's not being able to give up the ring as a failure at all. He felt that it was a victory. Read the Tolkien letters some time. They give some very good insights as to what he was thinking when he wrote that ending to the quest. It's funny how an author's intentions can differ from what many of his readers gleen from a book.
One more thing: I agree! Only a few measley paragraphs written by ME about such a moving chapter?!? C'mon! :-)
Comment by Tmage - June 21, 2002 @ 10:13 AM
When I read that chapter I felt Frodo failed too... but Tolkien didn't. Tolkien never saw Frodo's not being able to give up the ring as a failure at all. He felt that it was a victory. Read the Tolkien letters some time. They give some very good insights as to what he was thinking when he wrote that ending to the quest. It's funny how an author's intentions can differ from what many of his readers gleen from a book.
One more thing: I agree! Only a few measley paragraphs written by ME about such a moving chapter?!? C'mon! :-)
Comment by Tmage - June 21, 2002 @ 10:13 AM
that ME read through this chapter and intends to continue. Given his prior impatience with Frodo's frailty and the "Deus ex Machina" plot twists, I was afraid he'd throw the book down in digust at this point, and maybe not even post anymore--or just post, "That's it, I'm outta here".
I do hope that his remaining posts can resume his earlier standard of commentary. I understand how uncooperative life can be with long-term projects like this, and applaud his ability to stay with it thus far.
Comment by TiJean - June 21, 2002 @ 10:18 AM
that ME read through this chapter and intends to continue. Given his prior impatience with Frodo's frailty and the "Deus ex Machina" plot twists, I was afraid he'd throw the book down in digust at this point, and maybe not even post anymore--or just post, "That's it, I'm outta here".
I do hope that his remaining posts can resume his earlier standard of commentary. I understand how uncooperative life can be with long-term projects like this, and applaud his ability to stay with it thus far.
Comment by TiJean - June 21, 2002 @ 10:18 AM
I gotta agree with TiJean. It has to be very difficult to keep up such a long term project as this. But his other commentaries were so stirring at points that I was disappointed at the shortness of this one. It's funny, when the first article appeared here by ME I was very skeptical. "Who cares?" was my first thought. But since then... I'm hooked. These commentaries by ME have been very compelling reading and the memories brought back by them even more so. It's been twenty five years since I first read the trilogy and I had fogotten my first impressions of each chapter. Thanks for the memories, ME.
Tmage
Comment by Tmage - June 21, 2002 @ 10:27 AM
I gotta agree with TiJean. It has to be very difficult to keep up such a long term project as this. But his other commentaries were so stirring at points that I was disappointed at the shortness of this one. It's funny, when the first article appeared here by ME I was very skeptical. "Who cares?" was my first thought. But since then... I'm hooked. These commentaries by ME have been very compelling reading and the memories brought back by them even more so. It's been twenty five years since I first read the trilogy and I had fogotten my first impressions of each chapter. Thanks for the memories, ME.
Tmage
Comment by Tmage - June 21, 2002 @ 10:27 AM
he got the next chapter up. I am a little disappointed that there is not the level of insight that was in the earlier chapters. I am looking forward to ME's response to the book as a whole. I hope he gives a complete wrap up.
Comment by PstTBG - June 21, 2002 @ 10:52 AM
he got the next chapter up. I am a little disappointed that there is not the level of insight that was in the earlier chapters. I am looking forward to ME's response to the book as a whole. I hope he gives a complete wrap up.
Comment by PstTBG - June 21, 2002 @ 10:52 AM
Well it's not that bad but it still needs some more work. Don't be to hard on him, I remember when I had to read the whole LOTR series in a week and I swear I said practically nothing about it in my report.
Comment by 0Aragorn0 - June 21, 2002 @ 1:15 PM
Well it's not that bad but it still needs some more work. Don't be to hard on him, I remember when I had to read the whole LOTR series in a week and I swear I said practically nothing about it in my report.
Comment by 0Aragorn0 - June 21, 2002 @ 1:15 PM
After the first time I read through this report, I went back and read through those for the previous two chapters. So ok, less analysis than we might want to see, but such a strong contrast in the emotional response! I sense that it was a real struggle to get through the last two chapters, and then there is such exultation and relief in this report. It's like you were underwater, and finally got to come up and breathe. No wonder you only gasp out a few words.
Again, many of my reactions to individual chapters were different, but seeing a first-time reader react this way to this chapter brings back the magic for me, too.
I guess the other thing that reading through the comments does for me is fire up my ambition to read the letters, which are waiting in the next room.
Thanks for all the reports, Mark-Edmond, and I look forward eagerly to the next ones.
Comment by RunawayRose - June 21, 2002 @ 4:03 PM
After the first time I read through this report, I went back and read through those for the previous two chapters. So ok, less analysis than we might want to see, but such a strong contrast in the emotional response! I sense that it was a real struggle to get through the last two chapters, and then there is such exultation and relief in this report. It's like you were underwater, and finally got to come up and breathe. No wonder you only gasp out a few words.
Again, many of my reactions to individual chapters were different, but seeing a first-time reader react this way to this chapter brings back the magic for me, too.
I guess the other thing that reading through the comments does for me is fire up my ambition to read the letters, which are waiting in the next room.
Thanks for all the reports, Mark-Edmond, and I look forward eagerly to the next ones.
Comment by RunawayRose - June 21, 2002 @ 4:03 PM
I haven't been commenting on these much, but I have been reading them. This is quite disappionting! But I guess ME might be overwhelmed, or something, and he might just have alife. (:D) So I will eagerly await the next installment!
Comment by luthienelflover - June 21, 2002 @ 5:07 PM
I haven't been commenting on these much, but I have been reading them. This is quite disappionting! But I guess ME might be overwhelmed, or something, and he might just have alife. (:D) So I will eagerly await the next installment!
Comment by luthienelflover - June 21, 2002 @ 5:07 PM
M.E. is a Tolkien Virgin no longer.
Comment by woodley - June 21, 2002 @ 8:52 PM
M.E. is a Tolkien Virgin no longer.
Comment by woodley - June 21, 2002 @ 8:52 PM
I was disappointed at first about the short article, but I agree that this is not an easy long-term project, and we shouldn't be too hard on the author. I also agree that sometimes we just can't put our feelings into words. I like how he described the two elements of evil were untied and destroyed.
I just thought he would have more to say since this chapter was intense. Fortunately, I had learned bits and pieces of it, and peeked ahead, so it wasn't that hard. However, I was always sitting at the edge of my chair, thinking, "Tell me when it's over!" I could feel the suffering and pain, and really wished I could intervene.
Comment by fishy071 - June 21, 2002 @ 11:05 PM
I was disappointed at first about the short article, but I agree that this is not an easy long-term project, and we shouldn't be too hard on the author. I also agree that sometimes we just can't put our feelings into words. I like how he described the two elements of evil were untied and destroyed.
I just thought he would have more to say since this chapter was intense. Fortunately, I had learned bits and pieces of it, and peeked ahead, so it wasn't that hard. However, I was always sitting at the edge of my chair, thinking, "Tell me when it's over!" I could feel the suffering and pain, and really wished I could intervene.
Comment by fishy071 - June 21, 2002 @ 11:05 PM
The last time I read through Tolkien's works, I read the entries here every time I finished a chapter. The articles themselves were interesting, and many of the comments were helpful as well. I see there are others doing the same thing; still, many articles on the Silmarillion, for instance, have no comments. I think later this summer I'll read the books again more slowly, and see if I can add any comments.
Comment by RunawayRose - June 22, 2002 @ 3:43 AM
The last time I read through Tolkien's works, I read the entries here every time I finished a chapter. The articles themselves were interesting, and many of the comments were helpful as well. I see there are others doing the same thing; still, many articles on the Silmarillion, for instance, have no comments. I think later this summer I'll read the books again more slowly, and see if I can add any comments.
Comment by RunawayRose - June 22, 2002 @ 3:43 AM
I must admit, even after only reading the book twice, I thought the final moments at Mt Doom where a bit of an anti climax. It was over so fast... I guess I don't know what would have pleased me, Frodo actually doing it or the way it did happen.
Though I must admit I will definately read the book again, but I realised that even after only two readings, a couple of the chapters I thought were not so interesting have actually been much better.
Comment by hunter.clan - June 22, 2002 @ 4:26 AM
I must admit, even after only reading the book twice, I thought the final moments at Mt Doom where a bit of an anti climax. It was over so fast... I guess I don't know what would have pleased me, Frodo actually doing it or the way it did happen.
Though I must admit I will definately read the book again, but I realised that even after only two readings, a couple of the chapters I thought were not so interesting have actually been much better.
Comment by hunter.clan - June 22, 2002 @ 4:26 AM
That's all?!?!?!?!
Comment by myama - June 23, 2002 @ 4:26 AM
That's all?!?!?!?!
Comment by myama - June 23, 2002 @ 4:26 AM
Tolkien did quite say Frodo FAILED! He even said he could NOT win, because the power of the Ring and Evil was eventually too strong for anyone except God to resist it, basically.
About Gollum, Tolkien thought he _could_ have redeemed himself. He was quite close to it near Cirith Ungol, when Sam upset him. Then all was doomed. Tolkien even pondered what it would've meant in some Letter. Basically, Gollum would've become the MAIN character until the Ring's destruction. Eventually he would've seen that the only way of saving Frodo and hurting Sauron - who caused so much suffering to Smeagol - was to destroy the Ring. So Gollum would've taken the Ring from Frodo and would've cast himself _willingly_ in the Fires.
Oh, and definitely one of the best and most amazing chapters of LOTR :)
Comment by Fatty_Bolger - June 23, 2002 @ 4:50 AM
Tolkien did quite say Frodo FAILED! He even said he could NOT win, because the power of the Ring and Evil was eventually too strong for anyone except God to resist it, basically.
About Gollum, Tolkien thought he _could_ have redeemed himself. He was quite close to it near Cirith Ungol, when Sam upset him. Then all was doomed. Tolkien even pondered what it would've meant in some Letter. Basically, Gollum would've become the MAIN character until the Ring's destruction. Eventually he would've seen that the only way of saving Frodo and hurting Sauron - who caused so much suffering to Smeagol - was to destroy the Ring. So Gollum would've taken the Ring from Frodo and would've cast himself _willingly_ in the Fires.
Oh, and definitely one of the best and most amazing chapters of LOTR :)
Comment by Fatty_Bolger - June 23, 2002 @ 4:50 AM
To me it was quite obvious from book I chapter 2 that Frodo would not be able to destroy the ring. He has just seen the ring taken out of his fire unharmed, yet he can't throw it back in. Are we to expect him to casually drop it into the fire that he knows will destroy it? Where the ring is strongest? After it has worked on his mind for month, after he has worn it several times? It bothered me quite a bit throughout my first reading that nobody seems to consider this problem. Did any of the Wise have a plan? Elrond and Gandalf no doubt intended that Gandalf be there, but what had Galadriel planned?
I would have thought much less of the book if Frodo had thrown it in.
Comment by KalimacB - June 24, 2002 @ 2:21 AM
To me it was quite obvious from book I chapter 2 that Frodo would not be able to destroy the ring. He has just seen the ring taken out of his fire unharmed, yet he can't throw it back in. Are we to expect him to casually drop it into the fire that he knows will destroy it? Where the ring is strongest? After it has worked on his mind for month, after he has worn it several times? It bothered me quite a bit throughout my first reading that nobody seems to consider this problem. Did any of the Wise have a plan? Elrond and Gandalf no doubt intended that Gandalf be there, but what had Galadriel planned?
I would have thought much less of the book if Frodo had thrown it in.
Comment by KalimacB - June 24, 2002 @ 2:21 AM
I just read your message in the previous chapter, and I must say I sympathize. It IS difficult to put one's thoughts and feelings into words, and to have others dismiss them can be painfull. But don't give up. Even I gave a rather negative response to this article (see above), but in no way did I mean it as a personal attack.
Perhaps we all became spoiled by many of your previous entries. Perhaps people find it incomprehensible that, having persevered to this point in the story you weren't totaly enamored of it. PERHAPS some people have such a profound attachment to the characters that negative comments feel like a personal attack.
Obviously those of us who've already read the book will have a different perspective of what happens in each chapter. This in no way disqualifies your opinion as a first time reader (which is, of course, the whole point of this series of articles).
On behalf of myself and those whose posts may have seemed antagonistic but were in no way intended as such, I apologize.
On a secondary note, I noticed you said you'd finished the book 2 years ago, and were using the notes you took to write these articles. If such is the case, it becomes less surprising that, as time goes on, your articles seem less immediate. Whereas originally your responses were relatively fresh in your mind, now you have to look back and try to relive the experience.
Finally, some of the comments posted here are NOT necessarily directed towards you, but towards everybody following these posts. Some people wish to share their personal experiences and insights. Some of them may not do so very tactfully, admitted, but I'm sure they don't mean to offend.
Till next time, keep thinking :-)
PS. Those who DO mean to be insulting and derogatory aren't worth the pixels their posts are written in.
Comment by Shular - June 24, 2002 @ 1:01 PM
I just read your message in the previous chapter, and I must say I sympathize. It IS difficult to put one's thoughts and feelings into words, and to have others dismiss them can be painfull. But don't give up. Even I gave a rather negative response to this article (see above), but in no way did I mean it as a personal attack.
Perhaps we all became spoiled by many of your previous entries. Perhaps people find it incomprehensible that, having persevered to this point in the story you weren't totaly enamored of it. PERHAPS some people have such a profound attachment to the characters that negative comments feel like a personal attack.
Obviously those of us who've already read the book will have a different perspective of what happens in each chapter. This in no way disqualifies your opinion as a first time reader (which is, of course, the whole point of this series of articles).
On behalf of myself and those whose posts may have seemed antagonistic but were in no way intended as such, I apologize.
On a secondary note, I noticed you said you'd finished the book 2 years ago, and were using the notes you took to write these articles. If such is the case, it becomes less surprising that, as time goes on, your articles seem less immediate. Whereas originally your responses were relatively fresh in your mind, now you have to look back and try to relive the experience.
Finally, some of the comments posted here are NOT necessarily directed towards you, but towards everybody following these posts. Some people wish to share their personal experiences and insights. Some of them may not do so very tactfully, admitted, but I'm sure they don't mean to offend.
Till next time, keep thinking :-)
PS. Those who DO mean to be insulting and derogatory aren't worth the pixels their posts are written in.
Comment by Shular - June 24, 2002 @ 1:01 PM