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A Tolkien Virgin: The Return of the King - Book VI - Chapter 2 - The Journey Continues

May 19, 2002
Submitted By Jonathan

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"Where there's a whip there's a will, my slugs. Hold up! I'd give you a nice freshener now, only you'll get as much lash as your skins will carry when you come in late to your camp..."

Book VI
Chapter 2
The Land of Shadow

Little enjoyment left in the story.

Frodo's dragging me down. I want to smack him around and tell him to stop being so frickin' miserable and depressed. He just plods along, complaining constantly and refusing to hope. I know what it's like to go on miserably long after I thought I had strength for it. Clearly not to the same extent given that this is a frickin' story, but I know that even in the worst gloom there's a chance at getting a second, third, fourth wind and so on.

Let's have the story depend more on "strength of character" and "heroism in light of despair" instead of just good luck all the time. Whenever they're about to be discovered, orcs end up fighting each other till they get away or the threat is gone. Sure, maybe it's the effect of the ring, but it's getting old. Without Sam the story would hardly be worth reading.

So, Gollum is still around and he has the mithril coat. We know the Enemy gets a hold of it sooner or later, but do they get a hold of Gollum? Is he going to cause even more trouble for them?

I'm sorry, but reading this chapter is hard enough. I'm afraid I can't bring myself to spend more time going over it to come up with something interesting to comment on. And you can forget about me writing down anything I like. Well-written and enjoyable are far from synonymous, and I want to get through this to the light and the end of the tunnel.

till next time,

Mark-Edmond Howell
Kanazawa Japan
far(out)

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... 82 Comments

nothing

Comment by BlackRider9 - May 19, 2002 @ 4:39 PM
nothing

Comment by BlackRider9 - May 19, 2002 @ 4:39 PM
That Mark dude just sounds depressing

Comment by silvan_archer - May 19, 2002 @ 4:44 PM
That Mark dude just sounds depressing

Comment by silvan_archer - May 19, 2002 @ 4:44 PM
You are sooooo incrediabaly negative. Don't you see, the ring and the story are bigger than Frodo and Sam, "there are other powers at work besides the will of evil". Frodo himself or Sam could not have gone through Mordor without luck, and that is all they have to rely on anymore, sheer luck. Their strength is gone, Frodo's mind is basically gone. The ring has taken over, the only thing keeping them going is the want to get rid of the ring, and the only thing keeping them out of trouble is the other powers;.

Comment by daughterofpaladin - May 19, 2002 @ 4:57 PM
You are sooooo incrediabaly negative. Don't you see, the ring and the story are bigger than Frodo and Sam, "there are other powers at work besides the will of evil". Frodo himself or Sam could not have gone through Mordor without luck, and that is all they have to rely on anymore, sheer luck. Their strength is gone, Frodo's mind is basically gone. The ring has taken over, the only thing keeping them going is the want to get rid of the ring, and the only thing keeping them out of trouble is the other powers;.

Comment by daughterofpaladin - May 19, 2002 @ 4:57 PM
Man everyone has their own opinion but I think yours is a little screwy. Sure there is a chance or "luck" element but doesn't every fictional story have that too? And probably to ask if Gollum is going to cause a problem for them later you should read on. Thats part of what readers like to call suspense. Maybe fantasy and fiction is just not your thing man.

Comment by Olog-hai_Troll - May 19, 2002 @ 6:01 PM
Man everyone has their own opinion but I think yours is a little screwy. Sure there is a chance or "luck" element but doesn't every fictional story have that too? And probably to ask if Gollum is going to cause a problem for them later you should read on. Thats part of what readers like to call suspense. Maybe fantasy and fiction is just not your thing man.

Comment by Olog-hai_Troll - May 19, 2002 @ 6:01 PM
has the mithril coat? ahem? um....... not quite. Might want to check your facts, ME - the one orc got away and took it to the Dark Tower, not Gollum.

Comment by eriol - May 19, 2002 @ 7:06 PM
has the mithril coat? ahem? um....... not quite. Might want to check your facts, ME - the one orc got away and took it to the Dark Tower, not Gollum.

Comment by eriol - May 19, 2002 @ 7:06 PM
This chapter is where Frodo, with Sam, actually journeys into the heart of darkness; of course it's depressing, the reader has come along for the ride and it's not at all pleasant.
The book can only be assessed as a whole--it's a huge story, multi-layered and complex and many elements don't hit you until you've brooded upon it after the book is finished.
Your frustrations are natural as a first time reader at the most despairing part of the journey--you are in the trenches of the enemy and life is bleak, and grey and meaningless and you want it to be over. Wait. Give the story time to sink into your soul.

Comment by Novice - May 19, 2002 @ 7:40 PM
This chapter is where Frodo, with Sam, actually journeys into the heart of darkness; of course it's depressing, the reader has come along for the ride and it's not at all pleasant.
The book can only be assessed as a whole--it's a huge story, multi-layered and complex and many elements don't hit you until you've brooded upon it after the book is finished.
Your frustrations are natural as a first time reader at the most despairing part of the journey--you are in the trenches of the enemy and life is bleak, and grey and meaningless and you want it to be over. Wait. Give the story time to sink into your soul.

Comment by Novice - May 19, 2002 @ 7:40 PM
I know everyone has the right to their own opinion, but don't you think you're selling yourself a little short by only caring about "enjoyment?" I doubt that Tolkien's goal with LOTR was to create nonstop brainless fun, so if you have no interest in the quality of writing in a BOOK, you're missing out on a huge part of one of the greatest novels of all time.

Comment by lovetrain99 - May 19, 2002 @ 7:46 PM
I know everyone has the right to their own opinion, but don't you think you're selling yourself a little short by only caring about "enjoyment?" I doubt that Tolkien's goal with LOTR was to create nonstop brainless fun, so if you have no interest in the quality of writing in a BOOK, you're missing out on a huge part of one of the greatest novels of all time.

Comment by lovetrain99 - May 19, 2002 @ 7:46 PM
This is one of the chapters where I was like, "Tell me when it's over!" I felt the frustration and depression, and really wish I could intervene with the situations. To me, luck gave me hope.
I read it for the first this this year, but I don't think I could even write chapter-by-chapter. However, I thought the orcs, not Gollum, took the mithril coat, and the Ring was so powerful that it was overtaking them. Well, the story can get confusing.

Comment by fishy071 - May 19, 2002 @ 8:41 PM
This is one of the chapters where I was like, "Tell me when it's over!" I felt the frustration and depression, and really wish I could intervene with the situations. To me, luck gave me hope.
I read it for the first this this year, but I don't think I could even write chapter-by-chapter. However, I thought the orcs, not Gollum, took the mithril coat, and the Ring was so powerful that it was overtaking them. Well, the story can get confusing.

Comment by fishy071 - May 19, 2002 @ 8:41 PM
This is the part of the story where the significance does not even register until a reader has digested the whole of Lord of the Rings. And this usually means after repeated re-readings. During MY first reading (admittedly at the tender age of 14) I had never read anything like the deprivation and dispair that are going on with Frodo and Sam. In my next few times throught the book, I was tempted to skip over this part as being too down. And now, while still not my ultimate favorite, I love what it says about friendship and determination and struggle. Here's where you get to the "Brothers In Arms" part of the story. It is gritty realizm, it is discomfort and pain and - yes - verbalizing that. You think you're going to die, and these are your last miserable final days.
It's not fun, it's not pretty, but it's important.
And yes - Gollum most definately does not have th Mithryl coat. Maybe you might consider reading the chapter again.

Comment by Marea - May 19, 2002 @ 9:08 PM
This is the part of the story where the significance does not even register until a reader has digested the whole of Lord of the Rings. And this usually means after repeated re-readings. During MY first reading (admittedly at the tender age of 14) I had never read anything like the deprivation and dispair that are going on with Frodo and Sam. In my next few times throught the book, I was tempted to skip over this part as being too down. And now, while still not my ultimate favorite, I love what it says about friendship and determination and struggle. Here's where you get to the "Brothers In Arms" part of the story. It is gritty realizm, it is discomfort and pain and - yes - verbalizing that. You think you're going to die, and these are your last miserable final days.
It's not fun, it's not pretty, but it's important.
And yes - Gollum most definately does not have th Mithryl coat. Maybe you might consider reading the chapter again.

Comment by Marea - May 19, 2002 @ 9:08 PM
you must keep reading! As the other comments here say, it isn't supposed to be about showy heroism or 'can-do' machismo. It' s not even supposed to be about undying hope. It's about fultility, about being totally overwhelmed with despair, exhaustion, grief and fear; it's where we finally see what the power of the Ring is about: annihilation of hope and resistence and will. It's where we finally experience the numbing horror of Mordor and feel what it will be like for all Middle-earth if Sauron is victorious: ash, dust, choking gloom and hopeless, exhausted despair. There is nothing that Frodo or Sam can do in the face of this reallity and Frodo is completely beyond hope. You have to understand and accept that this is possible and neccessary for what happens subsequently. You must also try to understand that this degree of despair and depression are real and people do become overwhelmed by circumstances. This is why LoTR rises above nearly all of it's immitators, this is why it aspires to the truly great and is not just another adventure yarn. And this facet must be allowed to come through in the films if they are to be ultimately worthy of the books. It won't be fun, it won't be comfortable but it will be one of the things that make these films truly memorable.

Comment by pavelnash - May 20, 2002 @ 3:35 AM
you must keep reading! As the other comments here say, it isn't supposed to be about showy heroism or 'can-do' machismo. It' s not even supposed to be about undying hope. It's about fultility, about being totally overwhelmed with despair, exhaustion, grief and fear; it's where we finally see what the power of the Ring is about: annihilation of hope and resistence and will. It's where we finally experience the numbing horror of Mordor and feel what it will be like for all Middle-earth if Sauron is victorious: ash, dust, choking gloom and hopeless, exhausted despair. There is nothing that Frodo or Sam can do in the face of this reallity and Frodo is completely beyond hope. You have to understand and accept that this is possible and neccessary for what happens subsequently. You must also try to understand that this degree of despair and depression are real and people do become overwhelmed by circumstances. This is why LoTR rises above nearly all of it's immitators, this is why it aspires to the truly great and is not just another adventure yarn. And this facet must be allowed to come through in the films if they are to be ultimately worthy of the books. It won't be fun, it won't be comfortable but it will be one of the things that make these films truly memorable.

Comment by pavelnash - May 20, 2002 @ 3:35 AM
Only there was no review.

Comment by Zaphod - May 20, 2002 @ 4:38 AM
Only there was no review.

Comment by Zaphod - May 20, 2002 @ 4:38 AM
Based on his last two commentaries, it appears Mark
has given up on the story. It's too bad as these three chapters are, in my opinion, the whole point of the novel. Sacrifice, strength, love, and hope are all manifest as Sam and Frodo trudge defiantly to Mount Doom. I'm especially stung by Mark's criticism of Frodo. Tolkien has only been mentioning the terrible weight of the Ring since the beginning of Book IV. Of course it would be unbearable the closer it gets to its master. And something that evil would of course drain it's bearer of all hope. Once again, Sam's indispensibility is demonstrated. Wait until the next chapter....
We (e.g. us in the peanut gallery) have been talking about "luck" and the nature of orcs for several chapters now. Suffice it to say that Frodo and Sam aren't alone, that the forces of good are doing what they can (or are allowed to do) to help. Sam's discovery of water in this chapter is another example this assistance. Likewise the deliverance from the Orcs at the Isenmouthe is precipitated by Sauron's fear of Aragorn and the march of the Host of the West to the Black Gate.
We can also see "luck" in our own history. The Allies were often the recpients of incredible luck in World War II (example: Hitler takes a sleeping pill the morning of 6 June 44 and can't be woken in time to counter the D-Day Invasion). Likewise, evil in our world often damages itself (example: after Hitler woke up he went into a tirade and no one in the Nazi HQ had the balls to demand release of the Panzer reserve).
I expect Mark's going to hate the next chapter as well. It's a shame.

Comment by Aikanar - May 20, 2002 @ 5:04 AM
Based on his last two commentaries, it appears Mark
has given up on the story. It's too bad as these three chapters are, in my opinion, the whole point of the novel. Sacrifice, strength, love, and hope are all manifest as Sam and Frodo trudge defiantly to Mount Doom. I'm especially stung by Mark's criticism of Frodo. Tolkien has only been mentioning the terrible weight of the Ring since the beginning of Book IV. Of course it would be unbearable the closer it gets to its master. And something that evil would of course drain it's bearer of all hope. Once again, Sam's indispensibility is demonstrated. Wait until the next chapter....
We (e.g. us in the peanut gallery) have been talking about "luck" and the nature of orcs for several chapters now. Suffice it to say that Frodo and Sam aren't alone, that the forces of good are doing what they can (or are allowed to do) to help. Sam's discovery of water in this chapter is another example this assistance. Likewise the deliverance from the Orcs at the Isenmouthe is precipitated by Sauron's fear of Aragorn and the march of the Host of the West to the Black Gate.
We can also see "luck" in our own history. The Allies were often the recpients of incredible luck in World War II (example: Hitler takes a sleeping pill the morning of 6 June 44 and can't be woken in time to counter the D-Day Invasion). Likewise, evil in our world often damages itself (example: after Hitler woke up he went into a tirade and no one in the Nazi HQ had the balls to demand release of the Panzer reserve).
I expect Mark's going to hate the next chapter as well. It's a shame.

Comment by Aikanar - May 20, 2002 @ 5:04 AM
Just a note, the coat that Gollum picked up was not the mithril coat, that was taken to the dark tower by the last escaping orc. Rather, it was the coat that Sam had given Frodo and he discarded because it was too heavy, shortly after they made their escape.

Comment by nunke - May 20, 2002 @ 5:30 AM
Just a note, the coat that Gollum picked up was not the mithril coat, that was taken to the dark tower by the last escaping orc. Rather, it was the coat that Sam had given Frodo and he discarded because it was too heavy, shortly after they made their escape.

Comment by nunke - May 20, 2002 @ 5:30 AM
Believe me, I've told anyone that will listen how great this book is, but this is ridiculous.
I doubt ANY book could hold ANYone's interest at the snail's pace that he's reading it (assuming he didn't finish it months ago and he's just releasing his "critiques" this way). How long has it been going on now? Over a year-and-a-half now, hasn't it?
"Frodo's dragging me down. I want to smack him around and tell him to stop being so frickin' miserable and depressed. He just plods along, complaining constantly and refusing to hope."
Yeah, that Frodo. He's only starving, thirsty and cold, in a barren, desolate, stinking, evil place, with the weight of an unappreciative world on his shoulders, marching to almost certain death. What a gloomy guy he is, huh?
Of *course* it's depressing and downbeat at this point in the story - it's supposed to be!
"I'm afraid I can't bring myself to spend more time going over it to come up with something interesting to comment on. And you can forget about me writing down anything I like."
Good. With petulant little comments like this, I honestly can't even understand why I bothered to click on the guy's comments for this long, but I'm not going to to any more.

Comment by sk0766 - May 20, 2002 @ 7:11 AM
Believe me, I've told anyone that will listen how great this book is, but this is ridiculous.
I doubt ANY book could hold ANYone's interest at the snail's pace that he's reading it (assuming he didn't finish it months ago and he's just releasing his "critiques" this way). How long has it been going on now? Over a year-and-a-half now, hasn't it?
"Frodo's dragging me down. I want to smack him around and tell him to stop being so frickin' miserable and depressed. He just plods along, complaining constantly and refusing to hope."
Yeah, that Frodo. He's only starving, thirsty and cold, in a barren, desolate, stinking, evil place, with the weight of an unappreciative world on his shoulders, marching to almost certain death. What a gloomy guy he is, huh?
Of *course* it's depressing and downbeat at this point in the story - it's supposed to be!
"I'm afraid I can't bring myself to spend more time going over it to come up with something interesting to comment on. And you can forget about me writing down anything I like."
Good. With petulant little comments like this, I honestly can't even understand why I bothered to click on the guy's comments for this long, but I'm not going to to any more.

Comment by sk0766 - May 20, 2002 @ 7:11 AM
Tomday has it right. It's far, far easier to concentrate on the "exciting" stuff in the western plot threads than the "Depressing" stuff in Mordor--especially when you've been raised on a generation of fantasy that far more resembles the former.
It took me several readings to warm up to Sam and Frodo in Mordor, or rather, to grasp fully the strength it takes to keep moving towards an impossible goal when it would be so much easier to lie down and die.
For someone as young as Mark, the notion of being in such a situation may be so alien as to be impenetrable for now.

Comment by Axordil - May 20, 2002 @ 8:00 AM
Tomday has it right. It's far, far easier to concentrate on the "exciting" stuff in the western plot threads than the "Depressing" stuff in Mordor--especially when you've been raised on a generation of fantasy that far more resembles the former.
It took me several readings to warm up to Sam and Frodo in Mordor, or rather, to grasp fully the strength it takes to keep moving towards an impossible goal when it would be so much easier to lie down and die.
For someone as young as Mark, the notion of being in such a situation may be so alien as to be impenetrable for now.

Comment by Axordil - May 20, 2002 @ 8:00 AM
Perhaps Mark's reaction is what is intended here: the situation has no enjoyment, no hope. There is nothing in the situation that has any redeeming merit. The length of journey left to the mountain is probably longer than can be sustained by the food they carry, there is little or no water, and how can they ever hope to get back? If the feelings of "no hope" (meaning, no hope that Sam and Frodo can survive this Quest) get transferred to the reader, even if it means misinterpretting the story-telling as in some way flawed, then Tolkein has pulled a master stroke.
Remember, this isn't Star Wars. Frodo and Sam aren't going to enter mortal combat with Sauron, or behead eight Nazgul one-by-one to save the universe. There isn't going to be any swish gadgetry that will take them into the heart of the evil empire. This is utterly dull, gut-wrenching toil. All they can do is: get on with it. And thats what they are doing. The sudden realisation that we as readers get in this chapter is: it isn't a simple matter of storming the Mountain, a few quick strokes of your elven blade and you are home and dry. Rather, the Task looks even more impossible now than it did before, and, you are not going to get back home. All that can keep you going is the thought that you might just make it to the mountain, and, there doesn't seem to be any physical enemy in the way. Its just down to physical exertion and keeing going.
So for me, this is a great chapter - but I don't "enjoy" it.

Comment by davidw - May 20, 2002 @ 8:33 AM
Perhaps Mark's reaction is what is intended here: the situation has no enjoyment, no hope. There is nothing in the situation that has any redeeming merit. The length of journey left to the mountain is probably longer than can be sustained by the food they carry, there is little or no water, and how can they ever hope to get back? If the feelings of "no hope" (meaning, no hope that Sam and Frodo can survive this Quest) get transferred to the reader, even if it means misinterpretting the story-telling as in some way flawed, then Tolkein has pulled a master stroke.
Remember, this isn't Star Wars. Frodo and Sam aren't going to enter mortal combat with Sauron, or behead eight Nazgul one-by-one to save the universe. There isn't going to be any swish gadgetry that will take them into the heart of the evil empire. This is utterly dull, gut-wrenching toil. All they can do is: get on with it. And thats what they are doing. The sudden realisation that we as readers get in this chapter is: it isn't a simple matter of storming the Mountain, a few quick strokes of your elven blade and you are home and dry. Rather, the Task looks even more impossible now than it did before, and, you are not going to get back home. All that can keep you going is the thought that you might just make it to the mountain, and, there doesn't seem to be any physical enemy in the way. Its just down to physical exertion and keeing going.
So for me, this is a great chapter - but I don't "enjoy" it.

Comment by davidw - May 20, 2002 @ 8:33 AM
3 comments and first, to be redundant like the others who didn't care enough to review other peoples responses first... GOLLUM DOESN'T HAVE THE COAT!!!
2. I completely agree that practically everything involving Sam and Frodo after breaking off from the rest is as boring as hell and quite tedious. I always dreaded those chapters with them, but they are necessary.
3. When are you going to finish reading the books? I mean, you have been on them for a VERY long time. They can't be taking that long to read and it's not like your reviews can take very long to write either.... perhaps it's your slow reading that makes them so tedious!

Comment by FWH_Enforcer - May 20, 2002 @ 10:10 AM
3 comments and first, to be redundant like the others who didn't care enough to review other peoples responses first... GOLLUM DOESN'T HAVE THE COAT!!!
2. I completely agree that practically everything involving Sam and Frodo after breaking off from the rest is as boring as hell and quite tedious. I always dreaded those chapters with them, but they are necessary.
3. When are you going to finish reading the books? I mean, you have been on them for a VERY long time. They can't be taking that long to read and it's not like your reviews can take very long to write either.... perhaps it's your slow reading that makes them so tedious!

Comment by FWH_Enforcer - May 20, 2002 @ 10:10 AM
I don't know, how old you are, but power need not to show itself in a spectacular, brilliant way. Frodo is not a Superman (or a Superhobbit), he represents the ordinary man on the street. Unless he is not challenged by the force of evil, he is nothing else than a lovely hobbit seeking peace of his beloved hole. His quest uncovers the power of his will, which he wasn't even aware of before. Sure, he would prefer never being aware of it like this. Sam has it easier to continue the quest along with Frodo, because he has a reason like being together with his dearest friend till the end. Frodo hasn't got this consolation, it is another burden for him to lead Sam to death. I think you had better to think how you would feel if you were Frodo.

Comment by ladyofeldar - May 20, 2002 @ 10:27 AM
I don't know, how old you are, but power need not to show itself in a spectacular, brilliant way. Frodo is not a Superman (or a Superhobbit), he represents the ordinary man on the street. Unless he is not challenged by the force of evil, he is nothing else than a lovely hobbit seeking peace of his beloved hole. His quest uncovers the power of his will, which he wasn't even aware of before. Sure, he would prefer never being aware of it like this. Sam has it easier to continue the quest along with Frodo, because he has a reason like being together with his dearest friend till the end. Frodo hasn't got this consolation, it is another burden for him to lead Sam to death. I think you had better to think how you would feel if you were Frodo.

Comment by ladyofeldar - May 20, 2002 @ 10:27 AM
I always followed the Sam-Frodo chapters and wanted to skip the Rohan-Gondor chapters. I found the Sam-Frodo chapters inspiring: Frodo’s dogged persistence in the face of certain doom, and Sam’s equally dogged optimism and resourcefulness. Neither could have succeeded without the other. They helped make their luck, I think, by never giving up.
This is my first post here, and thanks for the depth of discussion. Much better than at some other sites!

Comment by Didymus - May 20, 2002 @ 11:35 AM
I always followed the Sam-Frodo chapters and wanted to skip the Rohan-Gondor chapters. I found the Sam-Frodo chapters inspiring: Frodo’s dogged persistence in the face of certain doom, and Sam’s equally dogged optimism and resourcefulness. Neither could have succeeded without the other. They helped make their luck, I think, by never giving up.
This is my first post here, and thanks for the depth of discussion. Much better than at some other sites!

Comment by Didymus - May 20, 2002 @ 11:35 AM
Next chapter is Mount Doom - I wonder if he''l enjoy it. He might be tricked into thinking there's a lot more to go before the Ring is destroyed. Maybe he's expecting a plot twist and will be disappointed.

Comment by robo - May 20, 2002 @ 1:21 PM
Next chapter is Mount Doom - I wonder if he''l enjoy it. He might be tricked into thinking there's a lot more to go before the Ring is destroyed. Maybe he's expecting a plot twist and will be disappointed.

Comment by robo - May 20, 2002 @ 1:21 PM
Remember that this part of the book is most likely based on Tolkien's experiences in the treches during WWI. It isn't just 'depressing fiction', but a mirror of part of his life.
-Kushana

Comment by Kushana - May 20, 2002 @ 2:23 PM
Remember that this part of the book is most likely based on Tolkien's experiences in the treches during WWI. It isn't just 'depressing fiction', but a mirror of part of his life.
-Kushana

Comment by Kushana - May 20, 2002 @ 2:23 PM
Yes, I always have a hard time reading through this part. But it is also the section that shows what friendship and dedication truly are.
I do wish that M-E had done a review.

Comment by PstTBG - May 20, 2002 @ 2:24 PM
Yes, I always have a hard time reading through this part. But it is also the section that shows what friendship and dedication truly are.
I do wish that M-E had done a review.

Comment by PstTBG - May 20, 2002 @ 2:24 PM
perhaps ME is in a bad mood right now, or having some personal problem(s) and/or is looking for more escapist/fun/adventure and Frodo and Sam's journey is not providing that for him. He seems to want Frodo to "buck up" and take it like a man or whatever. Maybe he see's too little "hero action" and too much of regular human weakness in Frodo. But that's the whole point. Frodo is struggling with the mental and spiritual struggles (not to mention the physical ones). And he's barely holding on. But he IS struggling. He hasn't given up. He is, as many have already said, the everyman of the tale. He's not Superman, ya know.... or Spiderman. I think Mark needs to take the Rings effect on Frodo's mind and spirit into account. I always felt that Frodo was becoming totally consumed by the corruption of the Ring at this point and was doing pretty darn good at holding on. the Ring is ALL to Frodo right now, like he's drugged or something. It takes great willpower just for him to pay attention. It's more than just physical pain at this point - it's a decent into hell with no hope of return physically AND spiritually. I think most of us would be acting a little screwed up and not with it at this point.

Comment by brighteyes - May 20, 2002 @ 2:52 PM
perhaps ME is in a bad mood right now, or having some personal problem(s) and/or is looking for more escapist/fun/adventure and Frodo and Sam's journey is not providing that for him. He seems to want Frodo to "buck up" and take it like a man or whatever. Maybe he see's too little "hero action" and too much of regular human weakness in Frodo. But that's the whole point. Frodo is struggling with the mental and spiritual struggles (not to mention the physical ones). And he's barely holding on. But he IS struggling. He hasn't given up. He is, as many have already said, the everyman of the tale. He's not Superman, ya know.... or Spiderman. I think Mark needs to take the Rings effect on Frodo's mind and spirit into account. I always felt that Frodo was becoming totally consumed by the corruption of the Ring at this point and was doing pretty darn good at holding on. the Ring is ALL to Frodo right now, like he's drugged or something. It takes great willpower just for him to pay attention. It's more than just physical pain at this point - it's a decent into hell with no hope of return physically AND spiritually. I think most of us would be acting a little screwed up and not with it at this point.

Comment by brighteyes - May 20, 2002 @ 2:52 PM
Is some chapters may totally bore you, or make you want to cry, or laugh, but getting through the book is as much a journey as the story itself. I remember the week before it came out I was cramming to finish Fellowship so I could see the movie on opening night, and I started crying I was so frustrated with some of the boring parts. When you finish the book is when you look back and say it was a good book, but getting to the end can be tough. And then every time you get to the end after that, you cry and cry and cry, but it is such a beautiful story you have to read it again. Its that simple, you love the characters, you love the world, the story is beautiful, just beautiful and inspiring, but heartrending and sad, so real that you can imagine Middle Earth and go there in your dreams, but getting to the end takes work and effort and on the first read stopping in the middle and not continuing leaves you unsatisfied and depressed.

Comment by daughterofpaladin - May 20, 2002 @ 7:30 PM
Is some chapters may totally bore you, or make you want to cry, or laugh, but getting through the book is as much a journey as the story itself. I remember the week before it came out I was cramming to finish Fellowship so I could see the movie on opening night, and I started crying I was so frustrated with some of the boring parts. When you finish the book is when you look back and say it was a good book, but getting to the end can be tough. And then every time you get to the end after that, you cry and cry and cry, but it is such a beautiful story you have to read it again. Its that simple, you love the characters, you love the world, the story is beautiful, just beautiful and inspiring, but heartrending and sad, so real that you can imagine Middle Earth and go there in your dreams, but getting to the end takes work and effort and on the first read stopping in the middle and not continuing leaves you unsatisfied and depressed.

Comment by daughterofpaladin - May 20, 2002 @ 7:30 PM
Simon Scott had something very interesting to say about Frodo's struggle: That of all the characters in LOTR, only Frodo has both an internal and an external relationship with the ring.
"Frodo appears throughout 'Fellowship' at the centre of circular 'Eye' forms. This shows that only Frodo is within the Eye. Only Frodo's quest is both an outer (destroy the ring) and inner (battle in mind and spirit) one. The other characters' relationships to the ring are purely external.
- Aragorn: returns ring to Frodo
- Boromir: temptation to possess the ring as a weapon
- Galadriel: refusal of temptation
- Gimli: tries to destroy the ring with an axe blow
Only Frodo is within the ring. Only Frodo feels pain when Gimli strikes the ring. Frodo's burden is to be within the Eye. He bears the Eye as a surrounding form and force. Frodo carries the weight of the Eye in his soul."
http://www.angelfire.com/film/stormcrow/eyefrodo.html
This might help to explain why Frodo seems such a wimp compared to the other characters, who do not have to bear the burden of the ring in their souls, but only deal with it outwardly. From what I hear, Peter Jackson will show this internal struggle and growing burden in the next two films.

Comment by Didymus - May 21, 2002 @ 6:54 AM
Simon Scott had something very interesting to say about Frodo's struggle: That of all the characters in LOTR, only Frodo has both an internal and an external relationship with the ring.
"Frodo appears throughout 'Fellowship' at the centre of circular 'Eye' forms. This shows that only Frodo is within the Eye. Only Frodo's quest is both an outer (destroy the ring) and inner (battle in mind and spirit) one. The other characters' relationships to the ring are purely external.
- Aragorn: returns ring to Frodo
- Boromir: temptation to possess the ring as a weapon
- Galadriel: refusal of temptation
- Gimli: tries to destroy the ring with an axe blow
Only Frodo is within the ring. Only Frodo feels pain when Gimli strikes the ring. Frodo's burden is to be within the Eye. He bears the Eye as a surrounding form and force. Frodo carries the weight of the Eye in his soul."
http://www.angelfire.com/film/stormcrow/eyefrodo.html
This might help to explain why Frodo seems such a wimp compared to the other characters, who do not have to bear the burden of the ring in their souls, but only deal with it outwardly. From what I hear, Peter Jackson will show this internal struggle and growing burden in the next two films.

Comment by Didymus - May 21, 2002 @ 6:54 AM
Neither is Tolkien's world, created to be as real as possible.
False bravery and futile heroism is something out of Shakespeare, not Tolkien, and I am glad that he uses a different plot device - call it luck, call it the Maiar, call it divine intervention - but it is GOOD.

Comment by GrimWinnebago - May 21, 2002 @ 8:56 AM
Neither is Tolkien's world, created to be as real as possible.
False bravery and futile heroism is something out of Shakespeare, not Tolkien, and I am glad that he uses a different plot device - call it luck, call it the Maiar, call it divine intervention - but it is GOOD.

Comment by GrimWinnebago - May 21, 2002 @ 8:56 AM
sk0766 said it all.

Comment by Frodo14 - May 21, 2002 @ 9:07 AM
sk0766 said it all.

Comment by Frodo14 - May 21, 2002 @ 9:07 AM
I've only read the book once and once I finished it, I felt it had a hold on me similar to the hold the ring had on Frodo. There were times I was exausted in the reading as he was in carrying the ring. Perhaps Mark is feeling the same "weight" of the book.
It's all about the journey. Frodo didn't give up so don't give up Mark.

Comment by Hoth_Watcher - May 21, 2002 @ 1:41 PM
I've only read the book once and once I finished it, I felt it had a hold on me similar to the hold the ring had on Frodo. There were times I was exausted in the reading as he was in carrying the ring. Perhaps Mark is feeling the same "weight" of the book.
It's all about the journey. Frodo didn't give up so don't give up Mark.

Comment by Hoth_Watcher - May 21, 2002 @ 1:41 PM
Everyone's getting down on M.E. You have to remember it's his first time through. After you see the whole picture, you realize that things had to get really bad before they got better. And about the luck. Orcs are greedy bastards!!! And just plain not nice. Of course there is going to be fighting amongst themselves. If it was total luck, they would have all been killed. Give him a couple chapters and i think the reviews will get much better. What the hell is taking him so long anyway? Hurry up already! Your audience is WAITING!!!

Comment by freakyfan - May 21, 2002 @ 4:44 PM
Everyone's getting down on M.E. You have to remember it's his first time through. After you see the whole picture, you realize that things had to get really bad before they got better. And about the luck. Orcs are greedy bastards!!! And just plain not nice. Of course there is going to be fighting amongst themselves. If it was total luck, they would have all been killed. Give him a couple chapters and i think the reviews will get much better. What the hell is taking him so long anyway? Hurry up already! Your audience is WAITING!!!

Comment by freakyfan - May 21, 2002 @ 4:44 PM
Alright so I have to admit that the chapter was a tad slow but cant you understand that it doesnt matter how much action there is? The book is not about heroism of the body, its about heroism of the soul! So i admit that it took me two reads to get that but who cares! Im letting you in on it now. Frodo's real battle isnt shown. It is him and the ring. Also, lets remember that Sauron is only Melkor's servant so its not just the will of the Dark Lord which is trying to overcome Frodo, it is the will of the purest evil ever known to Arda. He is struggling with this purely evil object, no not object, spirit. He is struggling with this horrendosly evil spirit which is trying to seduce him into darknes, to take the easy way out, and he has to refuse. He has to refuse all the power and strength that he can imagine. Think how overwhelming that could be for a tiny litle hobbit who nobody has ever heard of. Think how much strenght that must sap. And i just wanna say that Gollum does NOT have the mithril coat! the orc soldier took it to Barad-Dur and thats how it ended up in the "Black Gat Opens" duh.
Oh and hurry up will ya? Your like 20 and your still not done with the books! I finished the Whole kaboodle in two months(hobbit silmarillion and all) in about three months and im only 13. get a move on!

Comment by Goldberry_1420 - May 21, 2002 @ 6:28 PM
Alright so I have to admit that the chapter was a tad slow but cant you understand that it doesnt matter how much action there is? The book is not about heroism of the body, its about heroism of the soul! So i admit that it took me two reads to get that but who cares! Im letting you in on it now. Frodo's real battle isnt shown. It is him and the ring. Also, lets remember that Sauron is only Melkor's servant so its not just the will of the Dark Lord which is trying to overcome Frodo, it is the will of the purest evil ever known to Arda. He is struggling with this purely evil object, no not object, spirit. He is struggling with this horrendosly evil spirit which is trying to seduce him into darknes, to take the easy way out, and he has to refuse. He has to refuse all the power and strength that he can imagine. Think how overwhelming that could be for a tiny litle hobbit who nobody has ever heard of. Think how much strenght that must sap. And i just wanna say that Gollum does NOT have the mithril coat! the orc soldier took it to Barad-Dur and thats how it ended up in the "Black Gat Opens" duh.
Oh and hurry up will ya? Your like 20 and your still not done with the books! I finished the Whole kaboodle in two months(hobbit silmarillion and all) in about three months and im only 13. get a move on!

Comment by Goldberry_1420 - May 21, 2002 @ 6:28 PM
Hey, Mark-Edmond, why does this chapter get you down so much when the whole Silmarillion didn't?
All the flashy stuff going on in the West, battles, wars, the Paths of the Dead, the king appearing to Sauron in the Palantir, is a sideshow. Much of it is necessary for survival, but it isn't sufficient for survival. This slow hopeless creeping along, with the Ring weighing down Frodo like a tumor, nearly trapped by enemies, this is the real struggle. The confusion Aragorn and his allies are creating is part of what is making this possible; all the armies being rushed to the Black Gate, no thought in Sauron's mind of any danger within his land. Well, you saw what flashy heroics did to everybody in the Silmarillion. Now see what going on in the face of hopelessness may do.

Comment by RunawayRose - May 22, 2002 @ 5:16 AM
Hey, Mark-Edmond, why does this chapter get you down so much when the whole Silmarillion didn't?
All the flashy stuff going on in the West, battles, wars, the Paths of the Dead, the king appearing to Sauron in the Palantir, is a sideshow. Much of it is necessary for survival, but it isn't sufficient for survival. This slow hopeless creeping along, with the Ring weighing down Frodo like a tumor, nearly trapped by enemies, this is the real struggle. The confusion Aragorn and his allies are creating is part of what is making this possible; all the armies being rushed to the Black Gate, no thought in Sauron's mind of any danger within his land. Well, you saw what flashy heroics did to everybody in the Silmarillion. Now see what going on in the face of hopelessness may do.

Comment by RunawayRose - May 22, 2002 @ 5:16 AM
RunawayRose, excellent comment! I absolutely agree. The flashy heroics were what Sauron expected and looked for and what kept his attention, while the trudging drudgery of Frodo and Sam's journey was invisible to him. He did not expect it because he could not conceive of someone trying to destroy the ring rather than use it. So he didn't look for that to happen. Tolkien is brilliant.

Comment by Didymus - May 22, 2002 @ 5:40 AM
RunawayRose, excellent comment! I absolutely agree. The flashy heroics were what Sauron expected and looked for and what kept his attention, while the trudging drudgery of Frodo and Sam's journey was invisible to him. He did not expect it because he could not conceive of someone trying to destroy the ring rather than use it. So he didn't look for that to happen. Tolkien is brilliant.

Comment by Didymus - May 22, 2002 @ 5:40 AM
I found this chapter pretty impossible for a long time. Now I dig it. Truly, you won't find such stuff in, say, an R.A. Salvatore fantasy. Even hardship is exciting in that tripe, and in the end the constant excitement is, well, a bore.
My first LOTR read was when I plucked my Dad's copy of Return of the King off the shelf in 5th grade and thumbed it until I hit Sam chopping at a giant spider. How neat! Imagine my disappointment as I continued reading, heh heh.
You are almost there. Great stuff to come. Here's a suggestion: if you survive a second reading, plow thru the Appendices. Tolkien likes to reward dedicated readers with cool tidbits.

Comment by naurghash - May 22, 2002 @ 6:58 AM
I found this chapter pretty impossible for a long time. Now I dig it. Truly, you won't find such stuff in, say, an R.A. Salvatore fantasy. Even hardship is exciting in that tripe, and in the end the constant excitement is, well, a bore.
My first LOTR read was when I plucked my Dad's copy of Return of the King off the shelf in 5th grade and thumbed it until I hit Sam chopping at a giant spider. How neat! Imagine my disappointment as I continued reading, heh heh.
You are almost there. Great stuff to come. Here's a suggestion: if you survive a second reading, plow thru the Appendices. Tolkien likes to reward dedicated readers with cool tidbits.

Comment by naurghash - May 22, 2002 @ 6:58 AM
with the petty misfortunes of your own puny existence? 'I know what it's like to suffer...' Do you indeed. Perhaps when you've fought for 48 hours on the Somme and seen all your friends killed, as Tolkien did, you will be able to comment more constructively.

Comment by GreenKnight - May 22, 2002 @ 9:12 AM
with the petty misfortunes of your own puny existence? 'I know what it's like to suffer...' Do you indeed. Perhaps when you've fought for 48 hours on the Somme and seen all your friends killed, as Tolkien did, you will be able to comment more constructively.

Comment by GreenKnight - May 22, 2002 @ 9:12 AM
I did the same thing as Mark-Edmond seems to be doing now. I was about 20 when I first read LOTR, and took over a year to finish...I don't even remember if I got through Mt Doom. I would only read bits and pieces at a time, and the parts that weren't exciting for me, I really struggled through.
I finally read it again a few years later, and got through it within a couple months, and I enjoyed it a lot more. I've read them several times now, and the story gets better every time! I hope M-E can get through this first reading all the way through, then read it again. Just like a good pot of soup, it's much better the second time around....It's such an awsome story!

Comment by Trasmerg38 - May 22, 2002 @ 11:28 AM
I did the same thing as Mark-Edmond seems to be doing now. I was about 20 when I first read LOTR, and took over a year to finish...I don't even remember if I got through Mt Doom. I would only read bits and pieces at a time, and the parts that weren't exciting for me, I really struggled through.
I finally read it again a few years later, and got through it within a couple months, and I enjoyed it a lot more. I've read them several times now, and the story gets better every time! I hope M-E can get through this first reading all the way through, then read it again. Just like a good pot of soup, it's much better the second time around....It's such an awsome story!

Comment by Trasmerg38 - May 22, 2002 @ 11:28 AM
while dealing with the ring and the hopelessness of the quest, Frodo has other burdens to deal with. He has already had to deal with a near-mortal wounding (the morgul knife), the poison of Shelob, and abuse in the tower. On top of that, as far as he knows, Gandalf is dead, Boromir is dead, and most likely all his friends are dead (after all, if Boromir was killed what chance would Merry and Pippen have). And he blames himself for ALL these deaths. And he is leading Sam to his death as well. I can honestly say that if I had to deal with everything Fordo had to, I'd probably just curl up in a ditch somewhere and refuse to come out.

Comment by Shular - May 24, 2002 @ 5:10 PM
while dealing with the ring and the hopelessness of the quest, Frodo has other burdens to deal with. He has already had to deal with a near-mortal wounding (the morgul knife), the poison of Shelob, and abuse in the tower. On top of that, as far as he knows, Gandalf is dead, Boromir is dead, and most likely all his friends are dead (after all, if Boromir was killed what chance would Merry and Pippen have). And he blames himself for ALL these deaths. And he is leading Sam to his death as well. I can honestly say that if I had to deal with everything Fordo had to, I'd probably just curl up in a ditch somewhere and refuse to come out.

Comment by Shular - May 24, 2002 @ 5:10 PM
Well, hey there everybody. The Tolkien Virgin here. I have to say I'm not surprised I got flamed. After all this is a Tolkien fan site so to hell with anyone who doesn't appreciate Tolkien the way you do. To hell with anyone who actually dislikes something about Lord of the Rings. right?
Shame on you.
Here's a first-time reader who is tired with the story, worn down by Tolkien, and disappointed with what he feels is the over-use of luck as a plot device. And so what do you do? Well, some people were encouraging, but a lot of you just want to *** about me and comment on how stupid I must be for not appreciating the gloom. That's great.
For those of you who think I didn't like the chapter because my tastes are less refined, you're wrong. I don't think that enjoyment and brainless adventure action are equivalent. I've read a lot of lesser authors in the fantasy genre that have left me feeling empty. There is a depth to Tolkien that I enjoy, but at the time I wrote down my notes for this article, almost two years ago, I wasn't feeling it. I had had enough of the gloom and was longing for blue skies. Is that a sin? I guess so.
I read my article just now, and you're right it's not a good one. Perhaps I should have thought about it more, but I wasn't in the mood at the time. I was honest. I went with my gut reaction. I disliked the chapter. I disliked Frodo. I knew in my head what Frodo was going through, the incomprehensible torture, and all that, but I was just sick of it. Do you want honesty or do you want me to just make up something worshipful to say? I guess positive reactions are the only ones worth reading.

Comment by Mark-Edmond - June 16, 2002 @ 7:57 PM
Well, hey there everybody. The Tolkien Virgin here. I have to say I'm not surprised I got flamed. After all this is a Tolkien fan site so to hell with anyone who doesn't appreciate Tolkien the way you do. To hell with anyone who actually dislikes something about Lord of the Rings. right?
Shame on you.
Here's a first-time reader who is tired with the story, worn down by Tolkien, and disappointed with what he feels is the over-use of luck as a plot device. And so what do you do? Well, some people were encouraging, but a lot of you just want to *** about me and comment on how stupid I must be for not appreciating the gloom. That's great.
For those of you who think I didn't like the chapter because my tastes are less refined, you're wrong. I don't think that enjoyment and brainless adventure action are equivalent. I've read a lot of lesser authors in the fantasy genre that have left me feeling empty. There is a depth to Tolkien that I enjoy, but at the time I wrote down my notes for this article, almost two years ago, I wasn't feeling it. I had had enough of the gloom and was longing for blue skies. Is that a sin? I guess so.
I read my article just now, and you're right it's not a good one. Perhaps I should have thought about it more, but I wasn't in the mood at the time. I was honest. I went with my gut reaction. I disliked the chapter. I disliked Frodo. I knew in my head what Frodo was going through, the incomprehensible torture, and all that, but I was just sick of it. Do you want honesty or do you want me to just make up something worshipful to say? I guess positive reactions are the only ones worth reading.

Comment by Mark-Edmond - June 16, 2002 @ 7:57 PM
Don't you realize he's not reading your comments? Comments to Mark from pinheads like RunawayRose and Naurghash are a waste of fine electronic fonts. Do us a favor and save the bandwith for someone else.

Comment by Hacksaw16 - June 18, 2002 @ 3:07 PM
Don't you realize he's not reading your comments? Comments to Mark from pinheads like RunawayRose and Naurghash are a waste of fine electronic fonts. Do us a favor and save the bandwith for someone else.

Comment by Hacksaw16 - June 18, 2002 @ 3:07 PM
Well, I hope what I said earlier didn't come across as a flame; if so I apologise. I went back and re-read the Silmarillion after I started reading your articles, tried reading a chapter and then seeing what you had to say about it. I got a lot more out of it that way, and enjoyed it a lot more this time through. That's why I was surprised that this chapter got you down this much. On the other hand, the first time I read Tolkien, it was in Hobbit-LOTR-Silmarillion order. I had read LOTR about 20 times before I read the Silmarillion, and hence found the latter almost too dark and bitter to get through. On your first time through, you had some interesting and positive comments to make about the Silmarillion, but perhaps having been through that much tragedy in Tolkien made you kind of allergic to these two chapters.
Anyway, my reaction to them was different from yours, but I was still very interested to see how they affected you and what you had to say. It made me think. I do look forward to your future articles.

Comment by RunawayRose - June 21, 2002 @ 3:52 PM
Well, I hope what I said earlier didn't come across as a flame; if so I apologise. I went back and re-read the Silmarillion after I started reading your articles, tried reading a chapter and then seeing what you had to say about it. I got a lot more out of it that way, and enjoyed it a lot more this time through. That's why I was surprised that this chapter got you down this much. On the other hand, the first time I read Tolkien, it was in Hobbit-LOTR-Silmarillion order. I had read LOTR about 20 times before I read the Silmarillion, and hence found the latter almost too dark and bitter to get through. On your first time through, you had some interesting and positive comments to make about the Silmarillion, but perhaps having been through that much tragedy in Tolkien made you kind of allergic to these two chapters.
Anyway, my reaction to them was different from yours, but I was still very interested to see how they affected you and what you had to say. It made me think. I do look forward to your future articles.

Comment by RunawayRose - June 21, 2002 @ 3:52 PM
I’ve been lurking for over a year, but this brought me out of the woodwork. The scene in this chapter where Sam looks up and sees the star riding far above the murk of Mordor is, for me, the very heart of LOTR. That scene is like a summary of the whole book, the idea that there is hope and good that can’t ever be overcome by evil and darkness. I’ve always thought the star is Earendil, and that the light of the last Silmaril is what gives Sam hope when he needs it.
There’s a site similar to this one at www.electricpenguin.com/blatherings/lotr, where another Tolkien virgin read LOTR for the first time last summer. You might enjoy reading it. This chapter elicited 164 responses, and many of them were about the star.

Comment by Karen - July 16, 2002 @ 10:31 AM
I’ve been lurking for over a year, but this brought me out of the woodwork. The scene in this chapter where Sam looks up and sees the star riding far above the murk of Mordor is, for me, the very heart of LOTR. That scene is like a summary of the whole book, the idea that there is hope and good that can’t ever be overcome by evil and darkness. I’ve always thought the star is Earendil, and that the light of the last Silmaril is what gives Sam hope when he needs it.
There’s a site similar to this one at www.electricpenguin.com/blatherings/lotr, where another Tolkien virgin read LOTR for the first time last summer. You might enjoy reading it. This chapter elicited 164 responses, and many of them were about the star.

Comment by Karen - July 16, 2002 @ 10:31 AM
BORING! someonee take me back to Arragorn and Legolas! at least they do some cool stuff. whenever i read this part of the book i almost feel like litting my wrists, and no, i wouldnt read it except for Sam. but still, can u really blame frodo? i mean here he has the one ring which can destroy the world around his neck feeling like a 10 pound weight, he's in mordor, hasnt had a decent meal in god-knows-howlong, he probably smells, sam smells, gollum ran off and he doesnt know what's happening in the rest oof Midle Earth, if his friends are dead or alive! geeze give the guy a break!

Comment by Lady_Bright_Eyes - March 14, 2003 @ 6:09 AM
BORING! someonee take me back to Arragorn and Legolas! at least they do some cool stuff. whenever i read this part of the book i almost feel like litting my wrists, and no, i wouldnt read it except for Sam. but still, can u really blame frodo? i mean here he has the one ring which can destroy the world around his neck feeling like a 10 pound weight, he's in mordor, hasnt had a decent meal in god-knows-howlong, he probably smells, sam smells, gollum ran off and he doesnt know what's happening in the rest oof Midle Earth, if his friends are dead or alive! geeze give the guy a break!

Comment by Lady_Bright_Eyes - March 14, 2003 @ 6:09 AM

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