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A Tolkien Virgin: The Return of the King - Book VI - Chapter 1 - The Journey Continues

April 25, 2002
Submitted By Jonathan

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"'Gilthoniel, A Elbereth!' Sam cried. For, why he did not know, his thought sprang back suddenly to the Elves in the Shire, and the song that drove away the Black Rider in the trees."

Book VI
Chapter 1
The Tower of Cirith Ungol

I was chomping at the bit to get back to Frodo and Sam to see what's going on, but reading the first chapter of the last book, I was pretty disappointed. Actually annoyed. For the first time since I can remember I had a strongly negative reaction to something of Tolkien's.

Everything was just a little too convenient.

Sam's commitment to Frodo over-riding everything, he's determined to free him from Cirith Ungol. His view of Mordor was impressive. His temptation comes and goes. Sam's just a little too practical to believe the rings lies, and that fits his character just fine. He uses his brains to get past the Watchers, that was a cool touch.

But, then we get to the annoying bit. Although I don't put it past the Orcs to fight over the mithril coat, the fact that all of the orcs at Cirith Ungol killed eachother but two, one of them injured, was excessively convenient. Then, after Shagrat escapes with the coat, the one Orc left in the tower that was too scared to go down the stairs even should a Nagul order him to go, comes out of his locked room and provides the way for Sam to reach Frodo--just because the orc thought he heard him singing!! What happened to being so scared? Sam cuts off his arm, so the orc attacks him and proceeds to break its own neck falling through the trap door? Huh? So, every single orc in the entire tower is killed but one that flees. Way too convenient.

So, Frodo is naked, which should be a problem, but oh no, Sam manages to scrounge up some orc clothing that just so happens to fit a hobbit?? What??

They manage to get past the Watchers--and I will say that I really like the "Gilthoniel, A Elbereth," and "Aiya elenion ancalima!" that Sam and Frodo cried. And the colapsing of the gate was a nice touch. But, the little tid bits I liked about this chapter don't make up for the incredibly weak plot device Tolkien used to free Frodo. Tolkien is far too great a writer to leave some orcs for Sam to fight. Right? That would be so cliche. A swordfight in a tower. Way too cliche for Tolkien. I mean, if love of Frodo let him seriously injur and scare off Shelob, I wouldn't put it past Sam to be able to muster up the ability to kill a few orcs. Or something else, even. Anything else that might be on the verge of believability. Whatever.

At the very close of the chapter there's a Nazgul descending upon them, so I have to hurry on to the next chapter. And hurry on I will, in the hope that the next chapter won't be as bad.

till next time, keep thinking,

Mark-Edmond Howell
Kanazawa, Japan
far(out)

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The value of the mithril coat is thoroughly established in The Fellowship of the Ring (worth more than the entire Shire), so the orcs slaughtering each other over it is not a [i]deus ex machina[/i].
Also, the orcs, on average, are not much taller than hobbits so it's not a stretch to find an orc the size of Frodo in a fortress filled with them.

Comment by Visions_Fugitive - April 25, 2002 @ 6:16 AM
The value of the mithril coat is thoroughly established in The Fellowship of the Ring (worth more than the entire Shire), so the orcs slaughtering each other over it is not a [i]deus ex machina[/i].
Also, the orcs, on average, are not much taller than hobbits so it's not a stretch to find an orc the size of Frodo in a fortress filled with them.

Comment by Visions_Fugitive - April 25, 2002 @ 6:16 AM
I like what you say. I think that in life things DO fall into place at times, and with the fate that seems to help the good powers and also thwart the good powers at times, I don't find it too hard to imagine that there were perhaps other powers helping. So, this is my rationalization to allow me to live with it. After so much that Tolkien created, it seems odd that he would fall or become lazy in ANY area. Doesn't it? I guess that is your point. And when I read what you say, I do agree. The way you say it, I start thinking, "yeah, why WAS it that way and so easy??!!"
So thanks. This is something I'll contemplate more. The first thing that comes to mind is that Frodo and Sam did indeed have a light around them and about them, and that would cause the Orcs to act pretty unconsious and even more absurd than they usually would. After they knew that Shelob was hurt so, I guess they'd have been pretty shook by that.
Thanks very much
G

Comment by Glamdringolorian - April 25, 2002 @ 6:19 AM
I like what you say. I think that in life things DO fall into place at times, and with the fate that seems to help the good powers and also thwart the good powers at times, I don't find it too hard to imagine that there were perhaps other powers helping. So, this is my rationalization to allow me to live with it. After so much that Tolkien created, it seems odd that he would fall or become lazy in ANY area. Doesn't it? I guess that is your point. And when I read what you say, I do agree. The way you say it, I start thinking, "yeah, why WAS it that way and so easy??!!"
So thanks. This is something I'll contemplate more. The first thing that comes to mind is that Frodo and Sam did indeed have a light around them and about them, and that would cause the Orcs to act pretty unconsious and even more absurd than they usually would. After they knew that Shelob was hurt so, I guess they'd have been pretty shook by that.
Thanks very much
G

Comment by Glamdringolorian - April 25, 2002 @ 6:19 AM
Is that evil's great weakness is it's self-destructive nature. Greed, selfishness, and jealousy keep evil creatures from co-operating except under constant oppression, so when an opportunity presents itself, they betray and even kill each other without any compunction.
If this _weren't_ the case, evil would win.

Comment by Axordil - April 25, 2002 @ 7:39 AM
Is that evil's great weakness is it's self-destructive nature. Greed, selfishness, and jealousy keep evil creatures from co-operating except under constant oppression, so when an opportunity presents itself, they betray and even kill each other without any compunction.
If this _weren't_ the case, evil would win.

Comment by Axordil - April 25, 2002 @ 7:39 AM
Is this JRR being lazy, is an over simple plot device, or is this chpater entirely in keeping with the rest of the story?
The contrast between Sam and Frodo's story, and that of the others is one of scale. The latter have been fighting pitch battles, whilst Sam and Frodo have been creepring their way towards Mordor and Mount Doom. It is pretty clear that Sauron only sees the big picture. The idea that any small band of determined free people could achive anything by creeping into Mordor hasn't entered his head, even when he hears of "spies on the stairs". Something has indeed slipped. His control over his slaves is weakening. The two bands of orcs (from the tower of Cirith Ungol and from Minas Morgul) are natural enemies, were they to be elsewhere. So I think the only "convenient" bit is that they have managed to kill most of each other. As Visions_Fugitive says, the value of the mithril coat is more than enough to justify all of the in-fighting.
What is therefore clear is that Sauron isn't fully in control. He has no idea what is happening on the fringes of his powerbase.
What would have been the alternative? Sam fighting 100 orcs single-handed? I think the way it is, it is symptomatic of Sauron's whole attitude and approach, that his own forces are incapable of anything without his direct control. And he can't control everyone at once. Power has its limitations.
So I don't think this was a cop out. I certainly didn't feel disappointed in this Chapter. But we can speculate: is this entirely due to mismanagement / over confidence, or, is "someone" guiding and helping all along the way? Galadrial's statement "the Quest lies on a knife-edge. Stray but a little....." has a corollary: keep true to the Quest and success is certain. That doesn't mean that any one individual will survive. But that the path is laid out. Now its up to us all to follow it for our bit, however small or difficult.

Comment by davidw - April 25, 2002 @ 7:41 AM
Is this JRR being lazy, is an over simple plot device, or is this chpater entirely in keeping with the rest of the story?
The contrast between Sam and Frodo's story, and that of the others is one of scale. The latter have been fighting pitch battles, whilst Sam and Frodo have been creepring their way towards Mordor and Mount Doom. It is pretty clear that Sauron only sees the big picture. The idea that any small band of determined free people could achive anything by creeping into Mordor hasn't entered his head, even when he hears of "spies on the stairs". Something has indeed slipped. His control over his slaves is weakening. The two bands of orcs (from the tower of Cirith Ungol and from Minas Morgul) are natural enemies, were they to be elsewhere. So I think the only "convenient" bit is that they have managed to kill most of each other. As Visions_Fugitive says, the value of the mithril coat is more than enough to justify all of the in-fighting.
What is therefore clear is that Sauron isn't fully in control. He has no idea what is happening on the fringes of his powerbase.
What would have been the alternative? Sam fighting 100 orcs single-handed? I think the way it is, it is symptomatic of Sauron's whole attitude and approach, that his own forces are incapable of anything without his direct control. And he can't control everyone at once. Power has its limitations.
So I don't think this was a cop out. I certainly didn't feel disappointed in this Chapter. But we can speculate: is this entirely due to mismanagement / over confidence, or, is "someone" guiding and helping all along the way? Galadrial's statement "the Quest lies on a knife-edge. Stray but a little....." has a corollary: keep true to the Quest and success is certain. That doesn't mean that any one individual will survive. But that the path is laid out. Now its up to us all to follow it for our bit, however small or difficult.

Comment by davidw - April 25, 2002 @ 7:41 AM
I remember thinking similar thoughts during this chapter. Mark isn't questioning whether the opposing Orc camps would fight over the mithril coat. That is completey within reason. What is "convenient" is that they somehow managed to kill almost all of each other. How plausible is it that they were so evenly matched that only 2 survived? One would expect one faction to come out with at least a half dozen or so survivors. Sam could handle that many with Sting and the ring! :)
Although I really did like the aura of suspense and mystery as Sam entered the silent tower. It was spine tingling.
As a side note, for as scary as Orcs are made out to be, they are REALLY stupid. I mean, the mistaken identiy of Sam and Frodo coming up in a few chapters is pretty out there too on the convenience scale (I've long been convinced that Mark has either finished his journey long ago or doesn't read this forum, so I'm not too worried about spoilers.)
And while I'm baggin on Orcs, they stink as fighters too. It seems like they need a 10:1 advantage just to hold their own against the other races of Middle Earth. Ooops. Now I'm way off topic. Sorry. :)

Comment by Imbelambeion - April 25, 2002 @ 8:07 AM
I remember thinking similar thoughts during this chapter. Mark isn't questioning whether the opposing Orc camps would fight over the mithril coat. That is completey within reason. What is "convenient" is that they somehow managed to kill almost all of each other. How plausible is it that they were so evenly matched that only 2 survived? One would expect one faction to come out with at least a half dozen or so survivors. Sam could handle that many with Sting and the ring! :)
Although I really did like the aura of suspense and mystery as Sam entered the silent tower. It was spine tingling.
As a side note, for as scary as Orcs are made out to be, they are REALLY stupid. I mean, the mistaken identiy of Sam and Frodo coming up in a few chapters is pretty out there too on the convenience scale (I've long been convinced that Mark has either finished his journey long ago or doesn't read this forum, so I'm not too worried about spoilers.)
And while I'm baggin on Orcs, they stink as fighters too. It seems like they need a 10:1 advantage just to hold their own against the other races of Middle Earth. Ooops. Now I'm way off topic. Sorry. :)

Comment by Imbelambeion - April 25, 2002 @ 8:07 AM
Imbelambeion, any factions of orcs at Cirith Ungol would have given way to infighting over the mithril coat. Since it was made of a near-indestructable material, it couldn' t have been split up very easily.

Comment by Visions_Fugitive - April 25, 2002 @ 8:31 AM
Imbelambeion, any factions of orcs at Cirith Ungol would have given way to infighting over the mithril coat. Since it was made of a near-indestructable material, it couldn' t have been split up very easily.

Comment by Visions_Fugitive - April 25, 2002 @ 8:31 AM
Orc's are Notorious for fighting each other and rarely cooperate on their own, unless there is someone more pitiful and helpless that they both can torment together. However, even that is shortlived. Orcs fight constantly, themselves or others. This is the exact kind of bickering and rivalry that we see throughout middle earth and not the last time it occurs in this book.
Beyond that, there is a fundamental reason why everything happens in middle earth and it was all predetermined before any of it played out. One of the recurring themes is evil coming within victory's grasp just to be thwarted at the last possible second and often in the most unlooked for way but some force or good or fate. This has been established in ME and there is good reason for it if you study the rest of the books, so evil making a way for good to slip in and save the day is very consistent with the greater storyline and far more believable, I think, than having Sam do any more than he did.

Comment by FWH_Enforcer - April 25, 2002 @ 8:35 AM
Orc's are Notorious for fighting each other and rarely cooperate on their own, unless there is someone more pitiful and helpless that they both can torment together. However, even that is shortlived. Orcs fight constantly, themselves or others. This is the exact kind of bickering and rivalry that we see throughout middle earth and not the last time it occurs in this book.
Beyond that, there is a fundamental reason why everything happens in middle earth and it was all predetermined before any of it played out. One of the recurring themes is evil coming within victory's grasp just to be thwarted at the last possible second and often in the most unlooked for way but some force or good or fate. This has been established in ME and there is good reason for it if you study the rest of the books, so evil making a way for good to slip in and save the day is very consistent with the greater storyline and far more believable, I think, than having Sam do any more than he did.

Comment by FWH_Enforcer - April 25, 2002 @ 8:35 AM
I'm not going to attempt to comment on everything Mark said point by point, but I do have a few thoughts on his comments as a whole.
Tolkien's entire story is very much a destiny-oriented book. What I mean to say is that Tolkien frequently hints at a guiding "providence" which watches over and guides his heroes, as long as they cooperate. With that in mind, it is not difficult to see how Tolkien could easily include certain "miracles" that just seem all too perfect.
Also, I would dare say that what would be even more difficult to believe and even more cliched, is that if the two hobbits, completely on their own, overcame every obstacle, on their own, and defeated the power of Sauron, on their own.
To me, as I read this chapter for the first time, the presence of so many pieces of "luck" made Frodo and Sam's success even more credible to my mind, because I knew that their had to be some "divine" force at work.
Keep commenting Mark, I love your articles, even when you and I have different perceptions.

Comment by Glorfindel28 - April 25, 2002 @ 8:43 AM
I'm not going to attempt to comment on everything Mark said point by point, but I do have a few thoughts on his comments as a whole.
Tolkien's entire story is very much a destiny-oriented book. What I mean to say is that Tolkien frequently hints at a guiding "providence" which watches over and guides his heroes, as long as they cooperate. With that in mind, it is not difficult to see how Tolkien could easily include certain "miracles" that just seem all too perfect.
Also, I would dare say that what would be even more difficult to believe and even more cliched, is that if the two hobbits, completely on their own, overcame every obstacle, on their own, and defeated the power of Sauron, on their own.
To me, as I read this chapter for the first time, the presence of so many pieces of "luck" made Frodo and Sam's success even more credible to my mind, because I knew that their had to be some "divine" force at work.
Keep commenting Mark, I love your articles, even when you and I have different perceptions.

Comment by Glorfindel28 - April 25, 2002 @ 8:43 AM
I don't think Mark has misinterpreted the motivations of the orcs or the part that destiny plays. His comments go more to the choice that Tolkien made while penning this particular episode. I have had misgivings about this chapter before, more so during my "virgin" reading. I could never articulate it quite as nicely as Mark has.
My only disagreement is that the orc/hobbit size ratio is probably not too large to make the clothing issue believable. It did make me reconsider the size of orcs upon first reading it though.
I can think of ways it may have been better. Then again, Tolkien was never completely happy with the entire work. Perhaps with more time, he would have changed it to be a little less "convenient".

Comment by Gaerin - April 25, 2002 @ 9:51 AM
I don't think Mark has misinterpreted the motivations of the orcs or the part that destiny plays. His comments go more to the choice that Tolkien made while penning this particular episode. I have had misgivings about this chapter before, more so during my "virgin" reading. I could never articulate it quite as nicely as Mark has.
My only disagreement is that the orc/hobbit size ratio is probably not too large to make the clothing issue believable. It did make me reconsider the size of orcs upon first reading it though.
I can think of ways it may have been better. Then again, Tolkien was never completely happy with the entire work. Perhaps with more time, he would have changed it to be a little less "convenient".

Comment by Gaerin - April 25, 2002 @ 9:51 AM
I agree with davidw and the others: the mithril coat is something mythicaly expensive,the orcs are by nature mean to each other ,this thing could normally set them off to killing each other until the last one drops dead..........and so and so.....
But I wonder: is this what this chapter is all about? Whether Sam killed one or two or none?You thing that Tolkien had a problem providing Sam with an Ork or two?I think not...
The chapter sets the pace for the whole book and I thought it is very well done, even when I first read it.
It is here that Sam takes full responsibility for himself and Frodo.His overcoming the lure of the ring is truly monumental to me: his simple hobbit logic makes him to see Truth where others fall under the Spell of Power.
So he plundges into darkness.There is no help for Sam from nowhere.The fact that things happen, that clear his way is purely accidental:he would have gone all the way even if he had found a thousand Orks.He doesn't lose himself even in the last moment of despare.....and he sings as only a Hobbit would have done.
I consider it a reward to Sam from luck?ilouvatar?God?whatever (if anything), for his unwavering love and devotion for Frodo, that he should survive and save Frodo.
And so he actually finds some clothes ,not all Orks are tall.......not really important......
But did you notice the reaction of Frodo when he realises the Ring is taken fro him?Now this is terribly important:there is a lot of damage done by the Ring.And since we know the love of Frodo for Sam,his reaction makes me wonder if Frodo is going to survive the Ring's power?I fear for Frodo very much.....
All in all I was not disappointed by Tolkien but I expected more from Mark-Edmond

Comment by naias - April 25, 2002 @ 10:06 AM
I agree with davidw and the others: the mithril coat is something mythicaly expensive,the orcs are by nature mean to each other ,this thing could normally set them off to killing each other until the last one drops dead..........and so and so.....
But I wonder: is this what this chapter is all about? Whether Sam killed one or two or none?You thing that Tolkien had a problem providing Sam with an Ork or two?I think not...
The chapter sets the pace for the whole book and I thought it is very well done, even when I first read it.
It is here that Sam takes full responsibility for himself and Frodo.His overcoming the lure of the ring is truly monumental to me: his simple hobbit logic makes him to see Truth where others fall under the Spell of Power.
So he plundges into darkness.There is no help for Sam from nowhere.The fact that things happen, that clear his way is purely accidental:he would have gone all the way even if he had found a thousand Orks.He doesn't lose himself even in the last moment of despare.....and he sings as only a Hobbit would have done.
I consider it a reward to Sam from luck?ilouvatar?God?whatever (if anything), for his unwavering love and devotion for Frodo, that he should survive and save Frodo.
And so he actually finds some clothes ,not all Orks are tall.......not really important......
But did you notice the reaction of Frodo when he realises the Ring is taken fro him?Now this is terribly important:there is a lot of damage done by the Ring.And since we know the love of Frodo for Sam,his reaction makes me wonder if Frodo is going to survive the Ring's power?I fear for Frodo very much.....
All in all I was not disappointed by Tolkien but I expected more from Mark-Edmond

Comment by naias - April 25, 2002 @ 10:06 AM
The first time I read this chapter, I had no problems with it, perhaps because I was so happy to discover that Frodo was still alive. Now after having read Mark's criticism of the chapter, I still side with Tolkien.
Ok, we have established that it's believable for the Orcs to fight over the mithril coat. Add to the mix Gorbag's "traitorous" nature, which we learned at the end of TT, and a fight would seem inevitable. I would assume that the Silent Watchers would be loyal to the garrison commander, Shagrat, thus the fight by the Morgul company was doomed, as none of them would have been able to leave the Tower (as Shagrat did at the end of the chapter). It therefore makes sense that all of Gorbag's followers would be dead as the Cirith Ungol garrison would be fighting on their own turf, with the Silent Watchers on their side. On the other hand, having "babysitting" Shelob (as Gorbag would put it) for years, it would be a safe assumption that the Ungolites (?) would be poorer fighters than the Morgul company. Better fighters cancel out home court advantage leaving a stalemate and Orcs don't take prisoners or show mercy. End result: Gorbag and all his crew are killed and only two are left alive from the garrison.
Ok, I'm rationalizing. Tolkien probably wanted to move the story along and didn't have time for long drawn out fights. Call it "luck", divine intervention, or economy of writing, Frodo needed to be saved and Sam was only one hobbit. Occam's Razor says, make it a one on one fight.
One last comment. To quote Theoden, "Oft evil will shall evil mar." Evil both in Middle Earth and in real life is self centered and hateful. The Orcs hate everything and this chapter takes their nihilsm to its logical conclusion. One can assume that Sauron would destroy all of Middle Earth, including his followers and, in the end, himself. if he were to conquer the West.

Comment by Aikanar - April 25, 2002 @ 12:05 PM
The first time I read this chapter, I had no problems with it, perhaps because I was so happy to discover that Frodo was still alive. Now after having read Mark's criticism of the chapter, I still side with Tolkien.
Ok, we have established that it's believable for the Orcs to fight over the mithril coat. Add to the mix Gorbag's "traitorous" nature, which we learned at the end of TT, and a fight would seem inevitable. I would assume that the Silent Watchers would be loyal to the garrison commander, Shagrat, thus the fight by the Morgul company was doomed, as none of them would have been able to leave the Tower (as Shagrat did at the end of the chapter). It therefore makes sense that all of Gorbag's followers would be dead as the Cirith Ungol garrison would be fighting on their own turf, with the Silent Watchers on their side. On the other hand, having "babysitting" Shelob (as Gorbag would put it) for years, it would be a safe assumption that the Ungolites (?) would be poorer fighters than the Morgul company. Better fighters cancel out home court advantage leaving a stalemate and Orcs don't take prisoners or show mercy. End result: Gorbag and all his crew are killed and only two are left alive from the garrison.
Ok, I'm rationalizing. Tolkien probably wanted to move the story along and didn't have time for long drawn out fights. Call it "luck", divine intervention, or economy of writing, Frodo needed to be saved and Sam was only one hobbit. Occam's Razor says, make it a one on one fight.
One last comment. To quote Theoden, "Oft evil will shall evil mar." Evil both in Middle Earth and in real life is self centered and hateful. The Orcs hate everything and this chapter takes their nihilsm to its logical conclusion. One can assume that Sauron would destroy all of Middle Earth, including his followers and, in the end, himself. if he were to conquer the West.

Comment by Aikanar - April 25, 2002 @ 12:05 PM
ya'll like to talk dont ya? no time to do that, so i am just gonna say what i think. I agree things do fall into place, but it just shows that "there are other forces at work in this world besides the will of evil" bilbo's finding was bare chance, so was his escape, but i agree, it was altogether too easy, esp. after shelob. but it was sentimental that sam's anger overcame his fear at the pain of frodo, a nice touch

Comment by daughterofpaladin - April 25, 2002 @ 1:12 PM
ya'll like to talk dont ya? no time to do that, so i am just gonna say what i think. I agree things do fall into place, but it just shows that "there are other forces at work in this world besides the will of evil" bilbo's finding was bare chance, so was his escape, but i agree, it was altogether too easy, esp. after shelob. but it was sentimental that sam's anger overcame his fear at the pain of frodo, a nice touch

Comment by daughterofpaladin - April 25, 2002 @ 1:12 PM
There's a wonderful article in _Tolkien's Legendarium_ that points out one of the joys of reading _The History of the Lord of the Rings_. The article points out that Tolkien's rough drafts often try out several *bad* ideas -- things that just would have been terrible in terms of plot and pacing. (In fact, the final draft somtimes refers to these preliminary ideas in a kind of private in-joke). I don't remember what, if any, bad ideas were in the rough draft of this chapter -- but I've never found it convienient or conventional. How else could it have turned out? It's really too terrible to think about, especially as you read on in RoTK. So many events depend upon what happened in this chapter...
-Kushana

Comment by Kushana - April 25, 2002 @ 2:14 PM
There's a wonderful article in _Tolkien's Legendarium_ that points out one of the joys of reading _The History of the Lord of the Rings_. The article points out that Tolkien's rough drafts often try out several *bad* ideas -- things that just would have been terrible in terms of plot and pacing. (In fact, the final draft somtimes refers to these preliminary ideas in a kind of private in-joke). I don't remember what, if any, bad ideas were in the rough draft of this chapter -- but I've never found it convienient or conventional. How else could it have turned out? It's really too terrible to think about, especially as you read on in RoTK. So many events depend upon what happened in this chapter...
-Kushana

Comment by Kushana - April 25, 2002 @ 2:14 PM
Not much to say cept naias has hit the nail on the head about this chapter.........and shame on you Mark -Edmond for this momentary lapse :-)

Comment by matain - April 25, 2002 @ 4:10 PM
Not much to say cept naias has hit the nail on the head about this chapter.........and shame on you Mark -Edmond for this momentary lapse :-)

Comment by matain - April 25, 2002 @ 4:10 PM
deus ex machina means the gods (or powers or whatever) interfering to make eveything turn out right, right? well tolkien always seems to believe in the overriding power of good, and how things will go right for those fighting for good and not so well for those who we would call evil, at least in general. i dont think this is any different from any other chapter in terms of the strength of the plot, even if it does seem to fall into place to easily. an dwho knows? perhaps someone was interfering.... just something to think about...

Comment by luthienelflover - April 25, 2002 @ 4:56 PM
deus ex machina means the gods (or powers or whatever) interfering to make eveything turn out right, right? well tolkien always seems to believe in the overriding power of good, and how things will go right for those fighting for good and not so well for those who we would call evil, at least in general. i dont think this is any different from any other chapter in terms of the strength of the plot, even if it does seem to fall into place to easily. an dwho knows? perhaps someone was interfering.... just something to think about...

Comment by luthienelflover - April 25, 2002 @ 4:56 PM
Yes, given Tolkien's view of providence it's likely that many of the fortunate things that happened to Frodo and Sam can be attributed to higher powers, however this is not the same as a deus ex machina, which is an ad hoc or improbable way of resolving a plot. I don't believe that Tolkien painted himself into a corner when had Frodo imprisoned in Cirith Ungol. It was something he had planned for a while and had a way of getting our heroes out of, which he also made many hints at.

Comment by Visions_Fugitive - April 25, 2002 @ 6:54 PM
Yes, given Tolkien's view of providence it's likely that many of the fortunate things that happened to Frodo and Sam can be attributed to higher powers, however this is not the same as a deus ex machina, which is an ad hoc or improbable way of resolving a plot. I don't believe that Tolkien painted himself into a corner when had Frodo imprisoned in Cirith Ungol. It was something he had planned for a while and had a way of getting our heroes out of, which he also made many hints at.

Comment by Visions_Fugitive - April 25, 2002 @ 6:54 PM
Maybe we have different tastes, but I have never agreed with any of Mark's comments. I disagree with him about Frodo. I am absoultly in love Frodo. What a character! Oh and not to mention Elijah Wood is about the cutest thing. Frodo for me was one of my favorite character and I believe completly that things are meant to happen. So I this artical a 1 for creative differences between me and Mark-Edmond Howell

Comment by lady_of_lothlorien - April 25, 2002 @ 7:11 PM
Maybe we have different tastes, but I have never agreed with any of Mark's comments. I disagree with him about Frodo. I am absoultly in love Frodo. What a character! Oh and not to mention Elijah Wood is about the cutest thing. Frodo for me was one of my favorite character and I believe completly that things are meant to happen. So I this artical a 1 for creative differences between me and Mark-Edmond Howell

Comment by lady_of_lothlorien - April 25, 2002 @ 7:11 PM
I really don't like the way Sam gets into the tower too easily like that~come on, there should be a few orcs down there, and not to mention letting Sam get away with the alarm.
Another way I hate is the fact that Sam steals too much glory off Frodo. It makes it plain that Frodo is not neccessarily the only and best ring-bearer~Sam seemed to be better. So why don't just alter it a bit and stop letting Frodo lie in the tower like a dead thing?

Comment by snowlass - April 26, 2002 @ 1:38 AM
I really don't like the way Sam gets into the tower too easily like that~come on, there should be a few orcs down there, and not to mention letting Sam get away with the alarm.
Another way I hate is the fact that Sam steals too much glory off Frodo. It makes it plain that Frodo is not neccessarily the only and best ring-bearer~Sam seemed to be better. So why don't just alter it a bit and stop letting Frodo lie in the tower like a dead thing?

Comment by snowlass - April 26, 2002 @ 1:38 AM
First I'd like to suggest that the whole moment of temptation for Sam was meant to give us a small glimpse of what Frodo was going through every minute of the day.
Second, mention was given of the limitations of Sauron and how, without the ring, he wasn't all controlling, but I'm surprised nobody's suggested the proximity of the ring might have influenced the orcs' behaviour. If the orcs, as it seems, are tied up in Sauron's power structure, surely there would have been a little tingling in the back of their heads, the cause of which they wouldn't know. That would make them edgy, and more violence prone then even orcs normally are. And who's to say that some of the orcs on the "winning" side didn't turn on their comrades? Orcs seem to be about the strongest being the boss, but sometimes greed will overcome common sense and loyalty (two things for which orcs are not renowned).
Finally, with respect to size, I think that, although Tolkien never physically described them, orcs are much smaller then men. I'd guess about dwarf sized. They are, after all, mainly cave dwellers. Also, comments about the Uruk-hai seemed to indicate they were very large for orcs, almost man height. I don't think it's more unusual to find orc gear that's only a little too big for hobbits then a dwarf cloak which, you'll remember, Bilbo wore all the way to the Lonely Mountain. And Sam DID have to scrounge to find something close to their size.
The strength of orcs is in numbers and a lust for violence. They're the ultimate cannon fodder.

Comment by Shular - April 26, 2002 @ 6:48 AM
First I'd like to suggest that the whole moment of temptation for Sam was meant to give us a small glimpse of what Frodo was going through every minute of the day.
Second, mention was given of the limitations of Sauron and how, without the ring, he wasn't all controlling, but I'm surprised nobody's suggested the proximity of the ring might have influenced the orcs' behaviour. If the orcs, as it seems, are tied up in Sauron's power structure, surely there would have been a little tingling in the back of their heads, the cause of which they wouldn't know. That would make them edgy, and more violence prone then even orcs normally are. And who's to say that some of the orcs on the "winning" side didn't turn on their comrades? Orcs seem to be about the strongest being the boss, but sometimes greed will overcome common sense and loyalty (two things for which orcs are not renowned).
Finally, with respect to size, I think that, although Tolkien never physically described them, orcs are much smaller then men. I'd guess about dwarf sized. They are, after all, mainly cave dwellers. Also, comments about the Uruk-hai seemed to indicate they were very large for orcs, almost man height. I don't think it's more unusual to find orc gear that's only a little too big for hobbits then a dwarf cloak which, you'll remember, Bilbo wore all the way to the Lonely Mountain. And Sam DID have to scrounge to find something close to their size.
The strength of orcs is in numbers and a lust for violence. They're the ultimate cannon fodder.

Comment by Shular - April 26, 2002 @ 6:48 AM
First I'd like to suggest that the whole moment of temptation for Sam was meant to give us a small glimpse of what Frodo was going through every minute of the day.
Second, mention was given of the limitations of Sauron and how, without the ring, he wasn't all controlling, but I'm surprised nobody's suggested the proximity of the ring might have influenced the orcs' behaviour. If the orcs, as it seems, are tied up in Sauron's power structure, surely there would have been a little tingling in the back of their heads, the cause of which they wouldn't know. That would make them edgy, and more violence prone then even orcs normally are. And who's to say that some of the orcs on the "winning" side didn't turn on their comrades? Orcs seem to be about the strongest being the boss, but sometimes greed will overcome common sense and loyalty (two things for which orcs are not renowned).
Finally, with respect to size, I think that, although Tolkien never physically described them, orcs are much smaller then men. I'd guess about dwarf sized. They are, after all, mainly cave dwellers. Also, comments about the Uruk-hai seemed to indicate they were very large for orcs, almost man height. I don't think it's more unusual to find orc gear that's only a little too big for hobbits then a dwarf cloak which, you'll remember, Bilbo wore all the way to the Lonely Mountain. And Sam DID have to scrounge to find something close to their size.
The strength of orcs is in numbers and a lust for violence. They're the ultimate cannon fodder.
PS I also recall, the first time I read this chapter, thinking it strange all the orcs were dead, but I just decided to accept it. At this point I was far too much under the spell to let this disenchant me.

Comment by Shular - April 26, 2002 @ 6:50 AM
First I'd like to suggest that the whole moment of temptation for Sam was meant to give us a small glimpse of what Frodo was going through every minute of the day.
Second, mention was given of the limitations of Sauron and how, without the ring, he wasn't all controlling, but I'm surprised nobody's suggested the proximity of the ring might have influenced the orcs' behaviour. If the orcs, as it seems, are tied up in Sauron's power structure, surely there would have been a little tingling in the back of their heads, the cause of which they wouldn't know. That would make them edgy, and more violence prone then even orcs normally are. And who's to say that some of the orcs on the "winning" side didn't turn on their comrades? Orcs seem to be about the strongest being the boss, but sometimes greed will overcome common sense and loyalty (two things for which orcs are not renowned).
Finally, with respect to size, I think that, although Tolkien never physically described them, orcs are much smaller then men. I'd guess about dwarf sized. They are, after all, mainly cave dwellers. Also, comments about the Uruk-hai seemed to indicate they were very large for orcs, almost man height. I don't think it's more unusual to find orc gear that's only a little too big for hobbits then a dwarf cloak which, you'll remember, Bilbo wore all the way to the Lonely Mountain. And Sam DID have to scrounge to find something close to their size.
The strength of orcs is in numbers and a lust for violence. They're the ultimate cannon fodder.
PS I also recall, the first time I read this chapter, thinking it strange all the orcs were dead, but I just decided to accept it. At this point I was far too much under the spell to let this disenchant me.

Comment by Shular - April 26, 2002 @ 6:50 AM
I've enjoyed ME's posts up to now. But I feel he's missed some of the point on this chapter. I must admit that he has pointed out some plot points I didn't notice before. But in all honesty, I think ME is showing that he's a product of the Bruce Willis, Arnie S. school of action/adventure films. Sounds like he was expecting Sam to turn into some sort of Mini Arnold or Hobbit Willis and stomp some serious Orc butt!!! Interesting thought, but that's not Sam.
Main points in this chapter 1) He got it right on Sam rejecting the Ring. 2) Regardless if all the orcs are dead or not, Sam goes into the Tower. He doesn't know how many enemies he will face, but he goes anyway. His loyalty and devotion are the main point there. 3) I think it is believable that the greedy and evil orcs in a rather backwater outpost away from the main war could slaughter each other to the last. The point here is that greed and lust for the mithril coat leads to their undoing. 4) It's still not that easy of an escape! Sam realizes they have only a small window of opportunity to get out of that *** tower. And Frodo is not in the best shape and has no clothing. Let's face it, they barely get away before reinforcements arrive.
ME did make me look at this chapter from another angle and I can't say his points are not valid. They are. But I would say step back out of late 20th century action movies and look more closely at the underlying themes. I think Tolkien makes the important statements (ie loyalty and courage and resistance of temptation) quite well......

Comment by brighteyes - April 26, 2002 @ 10:08 AM
I've enjoyed ME's posts up to now. But I feel he's missed some of the point on this chapter. I must admit that he has pointed out some plot points I didn't notice before. But in all honesty, I think ME is showing that he's a product of the Bruce Willis, Arnie S. school of action/adventure films. Sounds like he was expecting Sam to turn into some sort of Mini Arnold or Hobbit Willis and stomp some serious Orc butt!!! Interesting thought, but that's not Sam.
Main points in this chapter 1) He got it right on Sam rejecting the Ring. 2) Regardless if all the orcs are dead or not, Sam goes into the Tower. He doesn't know how many enemies he will face, but he goes anyway. His loyalty and devotion are the main point there. 3) I think it is believable that the greedy and evil orcs in a rather backwater outpost away from the main war could slaughter each other to the last. The point here is that greed and lust for the mithril coat leads to their undoing. 4) It's still not that easy of an escape! Sam realizes they have only a small window of opportunity to get out of that *** tower. And Frodo is not in the best shape and has no clothing. Let's face it, they barely get away before reinforcements arrive.
ME did make me look at this chapter from another angle and I can't say his points are not valid. They are. But I would say step back out of late 20th century action movies and look more closely at the underlying themes. I think Tolkien makes the important statements (ie loyalty and courage and resistance of temptation) quite well......

Comment by brighteyes - April 26, 2002 @ 10:08 AM
For once he takes a stand about something important, instead of either ignoring what is important or giving us a plot-summary. This reminds me of some of his Silmarillion reports, which I did not agree with, but which did get me to think.
My reaction to this chapter is like Mark-Edmond's reaction to Denethor's words a couple of chapters ago--I can't bring myself to agree with his position, but what he says is neither foolish nor indefensible, and is well worth pondering.
Mark-Edmond must have known he'd get flamed for this, and it was courageous of him to post it.
But look at the response!
Bravo, Mark-Edmond, and I can't wait for the next.
On another note, has anyone ever heard of the old English legend of Richard the Lionheart and his minstrel Blondel, and see a similarity between that and this chapter? I do, and I wonder if it is one of the few tropes in the LOTR which are not simply "Germanic," but which are of definitely English extraction.

Comment by Daeron - April 26, 2002 @ 11:23 AM
For once he takes a stand about something important, instead of either ignoring what is important or giving us a plot-summary. This reminds me of some of his Silmarillion reports, which I did not agree with, but which did get me to think.
My reaction to this chapter is like Mark-Edmond's reaction to Denethor's words a couple of chapters ago--I can't bring myself to agree with his position, but what he says is neither foolish nor indefensible, and is well worth pondering.
Mark-Edmond must have known he'd get flamed for this, and it was courageous of him to post it.
But look at the response!
Bravo, Mark-Edmond, and I can't wait for the next.
On another note, has anyone ever heard of the old English legend of Richard the Lionheart and his minstrel Blondel, and see a similarity between that and this chapter? I do, and I wonder if it is one of the few tropes in the LOTR which are not simply "Germanic," but which are of definitely English extraction.

Comment by Daeron - April 26, 2002 @ 11:23 AM
I can understand where you are coming from man for real. But honestly I wouldn't see it as being too convenient at all. Having all the orcs kill each other to me are some of the most fun parts out of all the books. And I mean it is called fantasy writing is it not? Fantastic and mystical things often happen that would not be what was expected. Sure Tolkien could have gone back and made that part less convenient and more exciting but is that really what he wanted to do. Who knows.

Comment by greenleaf_funk - April 26, 2002 @ 1:07 PM
I can understand where you are coming from man for real. But honestly I wouldn't see it as being too convenient at all. Having all the orcs kill each other to me are some of the most fun parts out of all the books. And I mean it is called fantasy writing is it not? Fantastic and mystical things often happen that would not be what was expected. Sure Tolkien could have gone back and made that part less convenient and more exciting but is that really what he wanted to do. Who knows.

Comment by greenleaf_funk - April 26, 2002 @ 1:07 PM
Kushana commented on the joys of reading the history of the Lord of the Rings. As it happens, I did that earlier this year, and something about this chapter rang a bell for me. As far back as when he was writing the Council of Elrond, Tolkien had several future spots in the story partly planned - the climax, sure, but also some others, like Frodo being taken captive and rescued by Sam. Where he was taken captive and how he was rescued kept mutating as the story developed. The dangers kept getting more dangerous, the shadows darker, the heights higher, the lost king more majestic. In the earliest version I've located so far, Frodo gets rescued from Barad-Dur. As the story kept going, that obviously got to be out of the question; a later version was that he was rescued from Minas Morgul. The Ring and a lot of bluffing were involved, plus the hunt for them going in the wrong direction (who'd want to go into Mordor?). By the time the chapter was actually written, I guess the Nazgul and Minas Morgul had grown too dangerous, too, and the rescue got shifted to this little tower at the back of nowhere, with all the orcs conveniently killed. I can understand Mark-Edmond's exasperation with this point, but I guess the odds against the hobbits kept growing with the story, and this was one way to shift the luck back in their direction again. Apparently the rescue, and Sam's experiences as Ringbearer, were important to him in putting the whole story together, since they were a part of it from so early on.
Orcs varied a lot in size, so finding a couple somewhere near hobbit-size isn't really a stretch. I can see where it might seem so, but there will soon be another scene with a pair of orcs that gives a feel for the variation possible.
I liked seeing strong reactions to the story, even though they were different from mine. The fact that we are coming at this from so many different angles illuminates the story in some surprising ways.

Comment by RunawayRose - April 26, 2002 @ 6:15 PM
Kushana commented on the joys of reading the history of the Lord of the Rings. As it happens, I did that earlier this year, and something about this chapter rang a bell for me. As far back as when he was writing the Council of Elrond, Tolkien had several future spots in the story partly planned - the climax, sure, but also some others, like Frodo being taken captive and rescued by Sam. Where he was taken captive and how he was rescued kept mutating as the story developed. The dangers kept getting more dangerous, the shadows darker, the heights higher, the lost king more majestic. In the earliest version I've located so far, Frodo gets rescued from Barad-Dur. As the story kept going, that obviously got to be out of the question; a later version was that he was rescued from Minas Morgul. The Ring and a lot of bluffing were involved, plus the hunt for them going in the wrong direction (who'd want to go into Mordor?). By the time the chapter was actually written, I guess the Nazgul and Minas Morgul had grown too dangerous, too, and the rescue got shifted to this little tower at the back of nowhere, with all the orcs conveniently killed. I can understand Mark-Edmond's exasperation with this point, but I guess the odds against the hobbits kept growing with the story, and this was one way to shift the luck back in their direction again. Apparently the rescue, and Sam's experiences as Ringbearer, were important to him in putting the whole story together, since they were a part of it from so early on.
Orcs varied a lot in size, so finding a couple somewhere near hobbit-size isn't really a stretch. I can see where it might seem so, but there will soon be another scene with a pair of orcs that gives a feel for the variation possible.
I liked seeing strong reactions to the story, even though they were different from mine. The fact that we are coming at this from so many different angles illuminates the story in some surprising ways.

Comment by RunawayRose - April 26, 2002 @ 6:15 PM
According the the Tolkien quote I'm sure many of us are familiar with, JRR had "got the hero into such a fix that not even an author will be able to extricate him without labour and difficulty."
It's true: rescuing Frodo would be quite impossible for Sam without help from the outside (or inside, as in inside the tower, which is likely help from the outside as many have pointed out...am I making sense?). Considering our hobbits' prediciment, I think Tolkien did a great job extricating Frodo in a way that was suspenseful, plausible, and consistent with the greater story.
I do have a short list of chapters I don't particularly like, but The Tower of Cirith Ungol is not one of them.

Comment by DrogoBaggins - April 26, 2002 @ 6:37 PM
According the the Tolkien quote I'm sure many of us are familiar with, JRR had "got the hero into such a fix that not even an author will be able to extricate him without labour and difficulty."
It's true: rescuing Frodo would be quite impossible for Sam without help from the outside (or inside, as in inside the tower, which is likely help from the outside as many have pointed out...am I making sense?). Considering our hobbits' prediciment, I think Tolkien did a great job extricating Frodo in a way that was suspenseful, plausible, and consistent with the greater story.
I do have a short list of chapters I don't particularly like, but The Tower of Cirith Ungol is not one of them.

Comment by DrogoBaggins - April 26, 2002 @ 6:37 PM
I've read LOTR a couple dozen times in my life . . . . and the overwhelming majority of people I have discussed the books in detail (who admittedly, were mostly female) have quite a different reaction to it. For Mark Edmond, it seems that it was hard to suspend his disbelief about the whole escape from orcs and the tower issue. But for almost every person I spoke with, their first time ROTK Book VI was all about being incredulous at how gritty and bleak and starkly uncompromising a state Tolkien wrote for Frodo in this Chapter. We all thought of this as a strength in the book - this was no pretty, romanticized fantasy - but all the same we were shocked. We all had trouble with visualizing this hero, lying naked, probably still sick from Shelob poison (if the orcs conversation at the end of Two Towers could be believed), whipped (at least once) and otherwise roughed up by orcs. It is more intense, and more real, than it had to be if Tolkien wanted things to be "convenient". In fact, in subsequent re-readings, several of my friends have mentioned often skipping this chapter because they were unwilling to confront the imagery. In light of this, the escape seemed "providential" more than contrived - it always seemed to me that the powers-that-be saw to it the Sam's loyalty - and Frodo's sufferings - would not be in vain.
Still, Mark Edmond's points are well taken - the escape was an extraordinary circumstance.

Comment by Marea - April 27, 2002 @ 4:32 PM
I've read LOTR a couple dozen times in my life . . . . and the overwhelming majority of people I have discussed the books in detail (who admittedly, were mostly female) have quite a different reaction to it. For Mark Edmond, it seems that it was hard to suspend his disbelief about the whole escape from orcs and the tower issue. But for almost every person I spoke with, their first time ROTK Book VI was all about being incredulous at how gritty and bleak and starkly uncompromising a state Tolkien wrote for Frodo in this Chapter. We all thought of this as a strength in the book - this was no pretty, romanticized fantasy - but all the same we were shocked. We all had trouble with visualizing this hero, lying naked, probably still sick from Shelob poison (if the orcs conversation at the end of Two Towers could be believed), whipped (at least once) and otherwise roughed up by orcs. It is more intense, and more real, than it had to be if Tolkien wanted things to be "convenient". In fact, in subsequent re-readings, several of my friends have mentioned often skipping this chapter because they were unwilling to confront the imagery. In light of this, the escape seemed "providential" more than contrived - it always seemed to me that the powers-that-be saw to it the Sam's loyalty - and Frodo's sufferings - would not be in vain.
Still, Mark Edmond's points are well taken - the escape was an extraordinary circumstance.

Comment by Marea - April 27, 2002 @ 4:32 PM
I agree with ME about that there is a weak point in Tolkien, but this is not that Frodo is rescued by Sam so easily. The weak point in the whole story is the message about orcs. They are just evil creatures, they are not worth of one's pity, the only thing they deserve is death. In TTT neither men nor ents forgive them, when they are killed no plants grow on them-even the nature doesn't forgive them-.If this were in Hobbit, it could be acceptable,because Hobbit was written as a tale for Tolkien's son. In LOTR there is a drama about humanity, but there are still creatures doing bad things, only because they are bad. Neither in our world nor in Mittle-Earth everything is so easy.
About size, there are some clues about orcs, they can ride wolves, some orcs are bigger than others, these are almost like a man and only these are too big for hobbits. I also think that orcs' clothes fit for hobbits is not incredible.

Comment by ladyofeldar - April 28, 2002 @ 7:49 AM
I agree with ME about that there is a weak point in Tolkien, but this is not that Frodo is rescued by Sam so easily. The weak point in the whole story is the message about orcs. They are just evil creatures, they are not worth of one's pity, the only thing they deserve is death. In TTT neither men nor ents forgive them, when they are killed no plants grow on them-even the nature doesn't forgive them-.If this were in Hobbit, it could be acceptable,because Hobbit was written as a tale for Tolkien's son. In LOTR there is a drama about humanity, but there are still creatures doing bad things, only because they are bad. Neither in our world nor in Mittle-Earth everything is so easy.
About size, there are some clues about orcs, they can ride wolves, some orcs are bigger than others, these are almost like a man and only these are too big for hobbits. I also think that orcs' clothes fit for hobbits is not incredible.

Comment by ladyofeldar - April 28, 2002 @ 7:49 AM
If I understand what ladyofeldar is saying about orcs (that they should not be portrayed as completely evil, that life isn't like that and everything has some good in it), I have to disagree. A part of Morgoth's malice and evil was poured into the elves he broke and corrupted to make orcs. They are inherently evil, by nature, by nurture, and most importantly by magic (if I may use the term). To suggest there is some good in orcs would be to suggest there is some good in the ring. And for the same reason. Maybe in our world there is some good in everything (although I'm not convinced), in Middle-Earth there ARE some absolutes.

Comment by Shular - April 28, 2002 @ 11:03 AM
If I understand what ladyofeldar is saying about orcs (that they should not be portrayed as completely evil, that life isn't like that and everything has some good in it), I have to disagree. A part of Morgoth's malice and evil was poured into the elves he broke and corrupted to make orcs. They are inherently evil, by nature, by nurture, and most importantly by magic (if I may use the term). To suggest there is some good in orcs would be to suggest there is some good in the ring. And for the same reason. Maybe in our world there is some good in everything (although I'm not convinced), in Middle-Earth there ARE some absolutes.

Comment by Shular - April 28, 2002 @ 11:03 AM
The problem here is the point of view to others. Are orcs destined to be evil? Yes, they were once elves and made evil by Melkor. Do they deserve death? Yes, they do-Note,that we decide it,because we present good- Then just go and kill all of them in the name of GOOD. Of course, it is just a fantasy world and absolutes are allowed. But if you look around in the real world, you can see this mentality in real people. Maybe it wouldn't seem so bad in Tolkien's work, but it still disturbs me.

Comment by ladyofeldar - April 28, 2002 @ 2:14 PM
The problem here is the point of view to others. Are orcs destined to be evil? Yes, they were once elves and made evil by Melkor. Do they deserve death? Yes, they do-Note,that we decide it,because we present good- Then just go and kill all of them in the name of GOOD. Of course, it is just a fantasy world and absolutes are allowed. But if you look around in the real world, you can see this mentality in real people. Maybe it wouldn't seem so bad in Tolkien's work, but it still disturbs me.

Comment by ladyofeldar - April 28, 2002 @ 2:14 PM
I also have had trouble with viewing orcs as individual beings and at the same time being absolutely evil down to the last one. This is one of the main problem points with the structure of Tolkien's world in my mind. The "just kill them all" mentality towards them is disturbing - IF they are viewed as just bad people who could be redeemed. But I don't think Tolkien intended that, (though he may not have been as clear as he could have been on this point). So I have looked at it this way in regards to the alternate world Tolkien created: Orcs (and dragons and Trolls for that matter) are actual physical manifistations of Morgoth's and Sauron's Evil. They rise and fall with their masters and don't seem to be as "real" or powerful without them. Note they flee the Lords of the West when Sauron is destroyed. Why? Because the evil will driving them is gone and they flee back into darkness.... When the evil will IS driving them, they are direct instruments of Sauron's thought. Without his will powering them, I believe they will fade away into the shadows like all the monsters in our childhood closets. Nasty accidents, like rabid dogs. But WITH Sauron's will power in them, they are simply a multitude of various little Sauron's . And Sauron at his worst for that matter. Ergo unredeamable, because he (and by extention they) have rejected redemption. I do not believe this situation exists or applies directly to our world. Nor was it intended to be - although some people in our world DO give themselves or are driven over to evil at some point and may then become beyond redemption. So, though I think everyone in our world deserves a chance at redemption till proven otherwis, the Orcs in Tolkien's world are pure manifistations of evil (either from Sauron or externalized evil from all of us) That's one of the advantages of the fantasy mode. Tolkien could create externalized evil that could be battled directly - at the same time he lifted his fantasy above that rather simple direct battle and also plays on the various internal struggles with evil (that are more directly applicable to us) in his various other characters. So that's my view on why the orcs (and trolls and dragons) are beyond pity and redemption within Tolkien's world. They are very simply the base, easy, externalized evil of our own psyches within the story.....

Comment by brighteyes - April 28, 2002 @ 2:55 PM
I also have had trouble with viewing orcs as individual beings and at the same time being absolutely evil down to the last one. This is one of the main problem points with the structure of Tolkien's world in my mind. The "just kill them all" mentality towards them is disturbing - IF they are viewed as just bad people who could be redeemed. But I don't think Tolkien intended that, (though he may not have been as clear as he could have been on this point). So I have looked at it this way in regards to the alternate world Tolkien created: Orcs (and dragons and Trolls for that matter) are actual physical manifistations of Morgoth's and Sauron's Evil. They rise and fall with their masters and don't seem to be as "real" or powerful without them. Note they flee the Lords of the West when Sauron is destroyed. Why? Because the evil will driving them is gone and they flee back into darkness.... When the evil will IS driving them, they are direct instruments of Sauron's thought. Without his will powering them, I believe they will fade away into the shadows like all the monsters in our childhood closets. Nasty accidents, like rabid dogs. But WITH Sauron's will power in them, they are simply a multitude of various little Sauron's . And Sauron at his worst for that matter. Ergo unredeamable, because he (and by extention they) have rejected redemption. I do not believe this situation exists or applies directly to our world. Nor was it intended to be - although some people in our world DO give themselves or are driven over to evil at some point and may then become beyond redemption. So, though I think everyone in our world deserves a chance at redemption till proven otherwis, the Orcs in Tolkien's world are pure manifistations of evil (either from Sauron or externalized evil from all of us) That's one of the advantages of the fantasy mode. Tolkien could create externalized evil that could be battled directly - at the same time he lifted his fantasy above that rather simple direct battle and also plays on the various internal struggles with evil (that are more directly applicable to us) in his various other characters. So that's my view on why the orcs (and trolls and dragons) are beyond pity and redemption within Tolkien's world. They are very simply the base, easy, externalized evil of our own psyches within the story.....

Comment by brighteyes - April 28, 2002 @ 2:55 PM
Many people complain that Orcs are absolute evil, and that the Eldar are absolute good (although this is not true in the Silmarillion, it more or less is in LOTR). I think it is important to bear in mind that this story is not written about or for these magical creatures. It is about Mortals, be they Men or Hobbits. These extremes are important not so much in themselves, than as potential influences upon Man.
What makes Gondor stand out from other nations is not really superior bloodline (critics to the contrary), but that in Gondor is preserved that special lore, that appreciation for and striving after beauty, which is the legacy of the fading Eldar. This ennobling influence was the sole lasting result of the Middle-Earth soujourn of the Noldor.
On the other hand, the Orcs represent a terrifying example of the state to which Man can fall. The Mouth of Sauron is so corrupt that he is more cruel than an Orc. (**spoiler ahead**) The hobbits are horrified upon their return home to find their old friends giving them not welcome, but "rules and orc-talk instead."
Complaining about the absolute morality of orcs and elves is like complaining about angels and demons in Christian and Jewish literature. In fact, this literature is not about them, except insofar as they tempt Man for good or for evil.

Comment by Daeron - April 28, 2002 @ 3:38 PM
Many people complain that Orcs are absolute evil, and that the Eldar are absolute good (although this is not true in the Silmarillion, it more or less is in LOTR). I think it is important to bear in mind that this story is not written about or for these magical creatures. It is about Mortals, be they Men or Hobbits. These extremes are important not so much in themselves, than as potential influences upon Man.
What makes Gondor stand out from other nations is not really superior bloodline (critics to the contrary), but that in Gondor is preserved that special lore, that appreciation for and striving after beauty, which is the legacy of the fading Eldar. This ennobling influence was the sole lasting result of the Middle-Earth soujourn of the Noldor.
On the other hand, the Orcs represent a terrifying example of the state to which Man can fall. The Mouth of Sauron is so corrupt that he is more cruel than an Orc. (**spoiler ahead**) The hobbits are horrified upon their return home to find their old friends giving them not welcome, but "rules and orc-talk instead."
Complaining about the absolute morality of orcs and elves is like complaining about angels and demons in Christian and Jewish literature. In fact, this literature is not about them, except insofar as they tempt Man for good or for evil.

Comment by Daeron - April 28, 2002 @ 3:38 PM
Tolkien has written that the Ring represents the selfishness of the world, and the theme of betrayal is inseparable from the Ring's history: the forging of it betrayed the elven smiths, it betrayed Isildur by slipping off his finger, it caused Smeogal to slay Deogal, it betrayed Gollum by finding Bilbo, it corrupted Boromir who broke his oath to the Fellowship, and perhaps this power of betrayal in the Ring was shown in Isildur's refusal to heed Elrond's counsel and destroy the Ring.
The orcs thought they were fighting over an immensly valuable mithril coat, but it was the maddenning lust of the Ring which drove them to slay each other. As the ring had separated from Frodo, the bearer, it called out to evil and selfishness and its master, and the orcs responded in accordance with their nature, which is composed of such traits. It was for this reason that the Ring posed such a threat to the West, for it complemented Sauron's will in driving his armies and laid bare the works of the three Great Rings.

Comment by SelfishRing - April 28, 2002 @ 6:53 PM
Tolkien has written that the Ring represents the selfishness of the world, and the theme of betrayal is inseparable from the Ring's history: the forging of it betrayed the elven smiths, it betrayed Isildur by slipping off his finger, it caused Smeogal to slay Deogal, it betrayed Gollum by finding Bilbo, it corrupted Boromir who broke his oath to the Fellowship, and perhaps this power of betrayal in the Ring was shown in Isildur's refusal to heed Elrond's counsel and destroy the Ring.
The orcs thought they were fighting over an immensly valuable mithril coat, but it was the maddenning lust of the Ring which drove them to slay each other. As the ring had separated from Frodo, the bearer, it called out to evil and selfishness and its master, and the orcs responded in accordance with their nature, which is composed of such traits. It was for this reason that the Ring posed such a threat to the West, for it complemented Sauron's will in driving his armies and laid bare the works of the three Great Rings.

Comment by SelfishRing - April 28, 2002 @ 6:53 PM
This is my first contribution but I want to say to Mark that even though I disagree with some of his points (especially in this chapter) I thoroughly enjoy his articles. Reading them has brought back so many memories of my first time (almost 20 years ago!!). Keep it up.
I think the rescue of Frodo is about as realistic as it could be, unless Sam was going to suddenly grow to twice his size and gain a couple of extra sword arms. Pehaps it would have been nice to see him kick some Orc butt but it's quite unlikely that a hobbit with very little experience of fighting was going to be able to kill a huge amount of Orcs who have been fighting all their lives. Personally I think this would have been more of a disappointment.
Sam's rejection of the ring is consistent with his character. Sam has no great idea of saving the world or having absolute power, therefore the ring has nothing to offer him. However his love of Frodo is so absolute that he would have done anything to save him so his actions in this chapter are quite in character. We sometimes do crazy things for the people we love.
The orcs killing each other is classic Tolkien; the idea that evil eventually turns inward on itself is in keeping with his overall concepts. Maybe it is a little convenient that neither of the factions won but again the fact that the Orcs would fight each other to the complete end is believable from what we know of them.
As for the actual rescue it was made clear that the Orcs were quite nervous about the fact that somebody hurt Shelob quite seriously (some big elf warrior or such as they thought). Therefore given the slaughter that has just happened in the tower the reaction of the Orc to Sam is quite natural.
Sometimes things happen simply. There doesn't always have to be fireworks.

Comment by jimwalsh - April 29, 2002 @ 8:26 AM
This is my first contribution but I want to say to Mark that even though I disagree with some of his points (especially in this chapter) I thoroughly enjoy his articles. Reading them has brought back so many memories of my first time (almost 20 years ago!!). Keep it up.
I think the rescue of Frodo is about as realistic as it could be, unless Sam was going to suddenly grow to twice his size and gain a couple of extra sword arms. Pehaps it would have been nice to see him kick some Orc butt but it's quite unlikely that a hobbit with very little experience of fighting was going to be able to kill a huge amount of Orcs who have been fighting all their lives. Personally I think this would have been more of a disappointment.
Sam's rejection of the ring is consistent with his character. Sam has no great idea of saving the world or having absolute power, therefore the ring has nothing to offer him. However his love of Frodo is so absolute that he would have done anything to save him so his actions in this chapter are quite in character. We sometimes do crazy things for the people we love.
The orcs killing each other is classic Tolkien; the idea that evil eventually turns inward on itself is in keeping with his overall concepts. Maybe it is a little convenient that neither of the factions won but again the fact that the Orcs would fight each other to the complete end is believable from what we know of them.
As for the actual rescue it was made clear that the Orcs were quite nervous about the fact that somebody hurt Shelob quite seriously (some big elf warrior or such as they thought). Therefore given the slaughter that has just happened in the tower the reaction of the Orc to Sam is quite natural.
Sometimes things happen simply. There doesn't always have to be fireworks.

Comment by jimwalsh - April 29, 2002 @ 8:26 AM
Back to the Good Vs. Evil question. I think that an important fact that was left out was that beings not born directly from evil are not beyond redemption. Tolkien shows this with Gollum and the human allies of the dark lord; even Saruman is not beyond redemption. It is only the born into evil that are condemned in their entirety.
I think this shows that yes there is the shades of grey of evil that we know and experience in every day life, but that there is absolute evil which is a belief system that we have gotten away from.
Another thought about the belief in evil is that in the Old Testament of the Judo-Christian Bible evil and the punishment for that evil is an absolute. Plagues upon Egypt, Sodom, the Great Flood, and the casting out of Eden. However, in the New Testament Redemption becomes one of the main drivers, according to the teachings Jesus.
I think comparison between elves and orcs to the Angels and Demons is a good one. Also remember this world is to no long be a world of Elves and Orcs and their absolutes, but that of Man and his many shades of grey.
One final note the forces of good as far as I can remember do not actively pursue the extermination of the forces of Darkness. Gondor at the height of it's power only built structures to hem in and contain the evil creatures in Mordor instead of trying to hunt down and destroy them.

Comment by Grimhold - April 29, 2002 @ 12:45 PM
Back to the Good Vs. Evil question. I think that an important fact that was left out was that beings not born directly from evil are not beyond redemption. Tolkien shows this with Gollum and the human allies of the dark lord; even Saruman is not beyond redemption. It is only the born into evil that are condemned in their entirety.
I think this shows that yes there is the shades of grey of evil that we know and experience in every day life, but that there is absolute evil which is a belief system that we have gotten away from.
Another thought about the belief in evil is that in the Old Testament of the Judo-Christian Bible evil and the punishment for that evil is an absolute. Plagues upon Egypt, Sodom, the Great Flood, and the casting out of Eden. However, in the New Testament Redemption becomes one of the main drivers, according to the teachings Jesus.
I think comparison between elves and orcs to the Angels and Demons is a good one. Also remember this world is to no long be a world of Elves and Orcs and their absolutes, but that of Man and his many shades of grey.
One final note the forces of good as far as I can remember do not actively pursue the extermination of the forces of Darkness. Gondor at the height of it's power only built structures to hem in and contain the evil creatures in Mordor instead of trying to hunt down and destroy them.

Comment by Grimhold - April 29, 2002 @ 12:45 PM
The problem with fiction is that it is. Fortunately you can "go for the ride" or get off whenever you want. I personally always felt that there was something the opposite of Sauron helping with the many hazards put in Sam and Frodo's way. They simply had to discover and use them.
Please enjoy and question, but do not analyze. The trip is well worth it and for my part, better than any other I have taken

Comment by drex0746 - April 29, 2002 @ 2:53 PM
The problem with fiction is that it is. Fortunately you can "go for the ride" or get off whenever you want. I personally always felt that there was something the opposite of Sauron helping with the many hazards put in Sam and Frodo's way. They simply had to discover and use them.
Please enjoy and question, but do not analyze. The trip is well worth it and for my part, better than any other I have taken

Comment by drex0746 - April 29, 2002 @ 2:53 PM
naias covered many of the immportant items that ME missed in his review. I enjoy all MEs reviews, but I think he missed on this one.

Comment by jwinpa - April 30, 2002 @ 12:01 AM
naias covered many of the immportant items that ME missed in his review. I enjoy all MEs reviews, but I think he missed on this one.

Comment by jwinpa - April 30, 2002 @ 12:01 AM
In one of his letters, Tolkien wrote about orcs:
"I almost wrote irredeemable, but nothing is irredeemable."

Comment by KalimacB - April 30, 2002 @ 12:42 AM
In one of his letters, Tolkien wrote about orcs:
"I almost wrote irredeemable, but nothing is irredeemable."

Comment by KalimacB - April 30, 2002 @ 12:42 AM
The first time I read RotK I found this chapter unnerving. I was expecting some kind of violent conflageration and there is only an eeire silence. The Watchers freaked me out and the carnage had me thinking maybe Frodo hadn't survived. This chapter is all about tension...leading up to finding Frodo alive. I mean doesn't the calm freak us out more than bloodshed? That was the point.
And perhaps its a taste of things to come. An image of how life (or its parody) exists in Mordor.

Comment by scourgicus - April 30, 2002 @ 9:45 AM
The first time I read RotK I found this chapter unnerving. I was expecting some kind of violent conflageration and there is only an eeire silence. The Watchers freaked me out and the carnage had me thinking maybe Frodo hadn't survived. This chapter is all about tension...leading up to finding Frodo alive. I mean doesn't the calm freak us out more than bloodshed? That was the point.
And perhaps its a taste of things to come. An image of how life (or its parody) exists in Mordor.

Comment by scourgicus - April 30, 2002 @ 9:45 AM
Two of the things that I really enjoy about these forums is the chance to hear what other people think of LOTR, even if I disagree with them. And sometimes, someone comes up with something I never thought of, some idea that leaves me saying, "Wow, I never looked at it *that* way".
One of these was something someone mentioned on a forum within the last month (I am sorry I cannot remember who or where); that they thought the real point of temptation for Sam was not when the ring was offering him the world, but when Sam offered to keep the ring instead of giving it back to Frodo, out of a desire to help.
Scourgicus, I agree with you; it would be a relief if violence erupted. But it doesn't, so even though we (with Sam) find Frodo, the dramatic tension never really entirely lets off, because the risk is not ended. Even though they escape, there is no more than temporary safety. So the reader is left stressed into the following chapter.

Comment by Cori - May 1, 2002 @ 7:16 PM
Two of the things that I really enjoy about these forums is the chance to hear what other people think of LOTR, even if I disagree with them. And sometimes, someone comes up with something I never thought of, some idea that leaves me saying, "Wow, I never looked at it *that* way".
One of these was something someone mentioned on a forum within the last month (I am sorry I cannot remember who or where); that they thought the real point of temptation for Sam was not when the ring was offering him the world, but when Sam offered to keep the ring instead of giving it back to Frodo, out of a desire to help.
Scourgicus, I agree with you; it would be a relief if violence erupted. But it doesn't, so even though we (with Sam) find Frodo, the dramatic tension never really entirely lets off, because the risk is not ended. Even though they escape, there is no more than temporary safety. So the reader is left stressed into the following chapter.

Comment by Cori - May 1, 2002 @ 7:16 PM
I remember the first time I read TLotR, and at this point in the story, I couldn't put the thing down. I just was flying through this section, eager to see what would happen next. And these are very short chapters too. How can you take so long to read this stuff? You are completely ruining the continuity and flow of the storytelling for yourself. You really need to set aside some time and get INTO the book, and read more then just one chapter at a time. Get going!

Comment by Kexington - May 6, 2002 @ 8:49 AM
I remember the first time I read TLotR, and at this point in the story, I couldn't put the thing down. I just was flying through this section, eager to see what would happen next. And these are very short chapters too. How can you take so long to read this stuff? You are completely ruining the continuity and flow of the storytelling for yourself. You really need to set aside some time and get INTO the book, and read more then just one chapter at a time. Get going!

Comment by Kexington - May 6, 2002 @ 8:49 AM
... surmised Faramir of Gollum.
"Breed" is the operative word, I think - different breeds could vary greatly in size (and hence strength) - Snaga is much smaller than Shagrat and Gorbag; even his name (which means "slave") conveys the contempt the stronger orcs have for him.
Also, Gandalf says of the orcs in Moria: "SOME are large and evil ... Uruks of Mordor." Plus, the slave-drivers in Mordor are larger and stronger than the orcs they are forcing to march (unless I am very much mistaken).
Sam had a job to find anything that would fit - and the hauberk he DID find was "too long for Frodo and heavy" - but there would have been quite a selection (more than one would find in the average "Gap" shop, I imagine - certainly more than one would find in blatantly sizeish women's clothing stores!) But I digress.
I don't think Tolkien's work is perfect by any means (although it doesn't stop him being my favourite author) - but for me the Mordor chapters were the most convincing of all. It was actually things like SHELOB that I had trouble with - just never really worked for me (did anyone else find this? - everyone I have ever come across found her vivid and real, but I didn't).
Sorry you didn't enjoy these bits more, Mark-Edmond - (one man's meat is another man's poison, I guess).

Comment by Niphredil33 - June 29, 2002 @ 4:36 PM
... surmised Faramir of Gollum.
"Breed" is the operative word, I think - different breeds could vary greatly in size (and hence strength) - Snaga is much smaller than Shagrat and Gorbag; even his name (which means "slave") conveys the contempt the stronger orcs have for him.
Also, Gandalf says of the orcs in Moria: "SOME are large and evil ... Uruks of Mordor." Plus, the slave-drivers in Mordor are larger and stronger than the orcs they are forcing to march (unless I am very much mistaken).
Sam had a job to find anything that would fit - and the hauberk he DID find was "too long for Frodo and heavy" - but there would have been quite a selection (more than one would find in the average "Gap" shop, I imagine - certainly more than one would find in blatantly sizeish women's clothing stores!) But I digress.
I don't think Tolkien's work is perfect by any means (although it doesn't stop him being my favourite author) - but for me the Mordor chapters were the most convincing of all. It was actually things like SHELOB that I had trouble with - just never really worked for me (did anyone else find this? - everyone I have ever come across found her vivid and real, but I didn't).
Sorry you didn't enjoy these bits more, Mark-Edmond - (one man's meat is another man's poison, I guess).

Comment by Niphredil33 - June 29, 2002 @ 4:36 PM
Well, I kinda agree with you, but, i mean, this book would suck if sam and frodo were to die, and even though it was a bit too convenient, it was still cool, so lay off tolkien, will you please?

Comment by Arenia - May 4, 2004 @ 3:12 PM

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