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A Tolkien Virgin: The Return of the King - Book V - Chapter 10 - The Journey Continues

April 2, 2002
Submitted By Jonathan

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"At its head there rode a tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse, if horse it was; for it was huge and hideous, and its face was a frightful mask, more like a skull than a living head, and in the sockets of its eyes and in its nostrils there burned a flame..."
Book V
Chapter 10
The Black Gate Opens

The title alone is enough to make me cringe. And sure enough, things get bad. Real bad. Not exactly unexpected. Nowhere was the futility of their attack any more evident than where it says, "And so...it was with less than six thousands that the Captains of the West came at last to Challenge the Black Gate and the might of Mordor." And the sea of enemies that swarms them at the end is mind-boggling. Even greater than at Helm's Deep.

The only hope is in the destruction of the ring. For, I don't believe that Frodo and Sam have been captured--or at least not still captured. I keep telling myself that these books wouldn't be so popular if it all ended badly.

I just hope that the thousands of lives thrown away at the feet of Sauron have distracted him at all. I hope that these men die for a purpose.

The battle is so hopeless that I find myself wishing that Gandalf would burst into a ball of white fire and just mow down whole armies of Sauron. Obliterate them all, storm into Barad-dûr and just punch Sauron in the face, knocking him down and out and then just pick him up and throw his ass out the Door of Night for an overdue reunion with his master, before he even knows what hit him. That would be sweeet.

And, hey, where's Manwe and even Illuvatar in all of this? There are the eagles, and their appearance as Pippin died or passed out did give me chills (though I doubt they were sent by Manwe), but Illuvatar's predestined plan from way back in the Vallaquenta sucks majorly. Can I get a witness?

Needless to say, I can't wait to get on to Book VI. Book V was pretty much what I expected. Some of the specifics were interesting, and it wasn't as gloomy as Book IV, but Book III is still my favorite to this point. I've said it once, and I'll say it again: Ents rule.

till next time, keep thinking

Mark-Edmond
Kanazawa, Japan
far(out)

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... 46 Comments

  1. Gandalf does not have the power to directly contest Sauron. But even if he did, that is not his task. Had the Valar wanted such a victory, they could all have crossed the Sea again in force, and mowed Sauron down. But they will not do that again; this is a problem for Man, with the help of his fading allies, to tackle. It is the ordeal before his coming of age.

    For that matter, Gandalf could have taken the ring himself, and taken away all foolish human self-determination, and remade the world on a model of knowledge and order. But this is not his task. He was sent, out of the pity of the Valar, to help an inspire Man, so that Man could have the courage to make his own world.

    Comment by Daeron - April 2, 2002 @ 11:10 PM

  2. Gandalf does not have the power to directly contest Sauron. But even if he did, that is not his task. Had the Valar wanted such a victory, they could all have crossed the Sea again in force, and mowed Sauron down. But they will not do that again; this is a problem for Man, with the help of his fading allies, to tackle. It is the ordeal before his coming of age.

    For that matter, Gandalf could have taken the ring himself, and taken away all foolish human self-determination, and remade the world on a model of knowledge and order. But this is not his task. He was sent, out of the pity of the Valar, to help an inspire Man, so that Man could have the courage to make his own world.

    Comment by Daeron - April 2, 2002 @ 11:10 PM

  3. Mark-Edmond,

    One day you'll read our comments after you finish the book, and I hope you'll have a good laugh. For now, I must say that your desire to see "...Gandalf ... burst into a ball of white fire and just mow down whole armies of Sauron. Obliterate them all, storm into Barad-dûr and just punch Sauron in the face, knocking him down and out and then just pick him up and throw his ass out the Door of Night for an overdue reunion with his master, before he even knows what hit him."

    You've been so professional and reserved the whole couple of years (has it been that long?) I've been following this, that the emotional outburst feels like an epiphany. To that I say "Amen brother!" I about lost all bladder control upon discovering your displeasure with Illuvatar's master plan: " Illuvatar's predestined plan from way back in the Vallaquenta sucks majorly. Can I get a witness?"

    I hope that you read the book more quickly than this and that Jonathan is just a tortuous sadist who likes to keep us waiting for the next installment, and you're actually a white council member lurking around. If so, come visit us in Tom's House or the Donut Guild, and I'll buy you a coffee.

    Peace!


    PS: "Can I get a witness?" Ha ha!!

    Comment by goatboy - April 3, 2002 @ 6:26 AM

  4. Mark-Edmond,

    One day you'll read our comments after you finish the book, and I hope you'll have a good laugh. For now, I must say that your desire to see "...Gandalf ... burst into a ball of white fire and just mow down whole armies of Sauron. Obliterate them all, storm into Barad-dûr and just punch Sauron in the face, knocking him down and out and then just pick him up and throw his ass out the Door of Night for an overdue reunion with his master, before he even knows what hit him."

    You've been so professional and reserved the whole couple of years (has it been that long?) I've been following this, that the emotional outburst feels like an epiphany. To that I say "Amen brother!" I about lost all bladder control upon discovering your displeasure with Illuvatar's master plan: " Illuvatar's predestined plan from way back in the Vallaquenta sucks majorly. Can I get a witness?"

    I hope that you read the book more quickly than this and that Jonathan is just a tortuous sadist who likes to keep us waiting for the next installment, and you're actually a white council member lurking around. If so, come visit us in Tom's House or the Donut Guild, and I'll buy you a coffee.

    Peace!


    PS: "Can I get a witness?" Ha ha!!

    Comment by goatboy - April 3, 2002 @ 6:26 AM

  5. Comment by LOTRfreak02 - April 3, 2002 @ 8:08 AM

  6. Comment by LOTRfreak02 - April 3, 2002 @ 8:08 AM

  7. I am one of those periodic readers pf LOTR who is very much enjoying looking "over your shoulder" during your first time through the books. And I absolutely LOVE the emotional reaction this chapter has provoked here in your review! Fair warning however - I have always found the next book to be the most gut wrenching in the whole Trilogy. It keeps us mindful that Tolkein is not for sissies - his narrative captures the pain and deprivation and suffering that is often the fabric a heroic quest is woven out of, and without which any victory would be meaningless. Here's hoping we do not have to wait long for your next installment - I can't wait to find out how it affects you!

    Comment by Marea - April 3, 2002 @ 10:49 AM

  8. I am one of those periodic readers pf LOTR who is very much enjoying looking "over your shoulder" during your first time through the books. And I absolutely LOVE the emotional reaction this chapter has provoked here in your review! Fair warning however - I have always found the next book to be the most gut wrenching in the whole Trilogy. It keeps us mindful that Tolkein is not for sissies - his narrative captures the pain and deprivation and suffering that is often the fabric a heroic quest is woven out of, and without which any victory would be meaningless. Here's hoping we do not have to wait long for your next installment - I can't wait to find out how it affects you!

    Comment by Marea - April 3, 2002 @ 10:49 AM

  9. Eru isn't *that* obvious.

    To quote a dark moment in _The Last Battle_:
    "Do you think I keep Aslan in my pocket?"

    And to (mis)quote another book:
    "I think you're getting too caught up in this story -- maybe I'll finish reading it to you tomorrow." ;)

    Can't wait to hear what you think of the next chapter!
    -Kushana

    Comment by Kushana - April 3, 2002 @ 1:07 PM

  10. Eru isn't *that* obvious.

    To quote a dark moment in _The Last Battle_:
    "Do you think I keep Aslan in my pocket?"

    And to (mis)quote another book:
    "I think you're getting too caught up in this story -- maybe I'll finish reading it to you tomorrow." ;)

    Can't wait to hear what you think of the next chapter!
    -Kushana

    Comment by Kushana - April 3, 2002 @ 1:07 PM

  11. My reaction on first hearing this chapter (Mom read it to us when I was nine) was WHY DOESN'T SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING!!!!! That was of course after I'd finished cowering under the covers.

    Comment by Muccamukk - April 3, 2002 @ 9:48 PM

  12. My reaction on first hearing this chapter (Mom read it to us when I was nine) was WHY DOESN'T SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING!!!!! That was of course after I'd finished cowering under the covers.

    Comment by Muccamukk - April 3, 2002 @ 9:48 PM

  13. Illuvatar's plan sucks majorly?
    Gandalf needs to kick ass?
    Ents rule?

    Did Mark's little brother decide to write this week's review? ;-) Yes, this is the low point in the story, the darkest hour so to speak. But you know they say it is darkest before the dawn.

    Comment by Zaphod - April 4, 2002 @ 4:44 AM

  14. Illuvatar's plan sucks majorly?
    Gandalf needs to kick ass?
    Ents rule?

    Did Mark's little brother decide to write this week's review? ;-) Yes, this is the low point in the story, the darkest hour so to speak. But you know they say it is darkest before the dawn.

    Comment by Zaphod - April 4, 2002 @ 4:44 AM

  15. I have been following all of ME reports.(It actually took me three evenings).It has been nice to witness a first time.This is the only excuse for some of the remarks he puts in and so many he doesn't.
    I hope he finishes his first reading soon,and starts the second one as soon as possible.The LOTR is one rare case of a book that you read again and again and you have the feeling that you are getting better at that.
    At this point ,ME is caught up in action and trying to figure out what's next.He can't appreciate the inner rythm of the story.Later on he will realise that the moment infront of the Gate is one of these moments that life stands still,the world comes to a halt and the future is unknown.Stop breathing......
    I'm sure that later on he will also realise the true value of each Book and Chapter.Tolkien is a true master and his art ,ME is yet to fully appreciate.

    Comment by naias - April 4, 2002 @ 8:59 AM

  16. I have been following all of ME reports.(It actually took me three evenings).It has been nice to witness a first time.This is the only excuse for some of the remarks he puts in and so many he doesn't.
    I hope he finishes his first reading soon,and starts the second one as soon as possible.The LOTR is one rare case of a book that you read again and again and you have the feeling that you are getting better at that.
    At this point ,ME is caught up in action and trying to figure out what's next.He can't appreciate the inner rythm of the story.Later on he will realise that the moment infront of the Gate is one of these moments that life stands still,the world comes to a halt and the future is unknown.Stop breathing......
    I'm sure that later on he will also realise the true value of each Book and Chapter.Tolkien is a true master and his art ,ME is yet to fully appreciate.

    Comment by naias - April 4, 2002 @ 8:59 AM

  17. Does anyone else believe that the "Tolkien Virgin" installments ought to be published? These are way too much fun to get tossed in the archives of a web-site! It's amazing to find (again) the things that only a new reader would see, and hilarious to watch their reactions. I agree, Goatboy. I've found it terribly funny to watch the reserved Mark Edmond turn into this... um... normal Tolkien fan. Of course I have to disagree with his view on Eru, because if he hadn't planned it this way, then this story would have been sooo boring. I have better arguments too, but they can wait :-)

    Comment by Harpist_of_Rohan - April 4, 2002 @ 1:13 PM

  18. Does anyone else believe that the "Tolkien Virgin" installments ought to be published? These are way too much fun to get tossed in the archives of a web-site! It's amazing to find (again) the things that only a new reader would see, and hilarious to watch their reactions. I agree, Goatboy. I've found it terribly funny to watch the reserved Mark Edmond turn into this... um... normal Tolkien fan. Of course I have to disagree with his view on Eru, because if he hadn't planned it this way, then this story would have been sooo boring. I have better arguments too, but they can wait :-)

    Comment by Harpist_of_Rohan - April 4, 2002 @ 1:13 PM

  19. There should be a permanent place for these things! In fact, I've printed out most of them (only LOTR, not the Sil), including the comments it got, because if you look at it from a distance, it's so wonderful seeing people getting all worked up again about a scene they've read (and probably analyzed) dozens of times.

    Comment by Fëacálë - April 4, 2002 @ 3:37 PM

  20. There should be a permanent place for these things! In fact, I've printed out most of them (only LOTR, not the Sil), including the comments it got, because if you look at it from a distance, it's so wonderful seeing people getting all worked up again about a scene they've read (and probably analyzed) dozens of times.

    Comment by Fëacálë - April 4, 2002 @ 3:37 PM

  21. Mark-Edmond has been reading so slowly and carefully, and thinking so hard about what he's reading and what to say about it. If the articles are anywhere near real time, no wonder he is expressing frustration after reading this chapter. It will be several more till he sees how it works out. It is nice to see him caring so much about the characters and the story; as always I find his perspective is making me appreciate the story more.

    Comment by RunawayRose - April 4, 2002 @ 4:32 PM

  22. Mark-Edmond has been reading so slowly and carefully, and thinking so hard about what he's reading and what to say about it. If the articles are anywhere near real time, no wonder he is expressing frustration after reading this chapter. It will be several more till he sees how it works out. It is nice to see him caring so much about the characters and the story; as always I find his perspective is making me appreciate the story more.

    Comment by RunawayRose - April 4, 2002 @ 4:32 PM

  23. Another interesting post from ME and even more interesting posts. I sympathize with Mark's wish that Gandalf would kick some Dark Lord butt, however, as tomday and daeron state, there are limits on the use of power in Middle Earth (and Arda). Also, as we'll see in Appendix, the wizards were sent to Middle Earth to rally the Free Peoples, not take on Sauron mano a mano. We saw what happened to Gandalf the Grey when he took on the Balrog in Moria. Certainly, the Mouth of Sauron isn't totally frightened by the wizard's presence, and he's only a man. As Fararmir stated in Book IV, Gandalf is a "mover of deeds" rather than an avenging force.

    Eru/Iluvatar/God does insist on freedom of choice and the freedom to fail for his people. Things aren't all predestined, especially now that Man is taking centerstage. Man is completely free "beyond the Music of the Ainur which rules all else." Thus, the sacrifice of the Army of the West is even more poignant as they have no idea what the fate of the Ringbearer is but they can see their fate -- borne down by the overwhelming power of Sauron's armies.

    Comment by Aikanar - April 5, 2002 @ 3:06 AM

  24. Another interesting post from ME and even more interesting posts. I sympathize with Mark's wish that Gandalf would kick some Dark Lord butt, however, as tomday and daeron state, there are limits on the use of power in Middle Earth (and Arda). Also, as we'll see in Appendix, the wizards were sent to Middle Earth to rally the Free Peoples, not take on Sauron mano a mano. We saw what happened to Gandalf the Grey when he took on the Balrog in Moria. Certainly, the Mouth of Sauron isn't totally frightened by the wizard's presence, and he's only a man. As Fararmir stated in Book IV, Gandalf is a "mover of deeds" rather than an avenging force.

    Eru/Iluvatar/God does insist on freedom of choice and the freedom to fail for his people. Things aren't all predestined, especially now that Man is taking centerstage. Man is completely free "beyond the Music of the Ainur which rules all else." Thus, the sacrifice of the Army of the West is even more poignant as they have no idea what the fate of the Ringbearer is but they can see their fate -- borne down by the overwhelming power of Sauron's armies.

    Comment by Aikanar - April 5, 2002 @ 3:06 AM

  25. Mark-Edmond seems to be a very bright and cheerful person, who loves fantasy because of the sense of wonder. Hence his love for Lothlorien, and for the Ents, and (for old-timers on the site) for the earlier chapters of Sil, where the Elves are migrating west, then east, and establishing their nations with high hopes.

    I sense that he doesn't like it when wonder in Tolkien's work gets subsumed by darkness. The later chapters of Sil sent Mark-Edmond reeling like a man who has been hit several times in succession, and he nearly threw the book away. He didn't care much for most of the dark Book IV (although he appreciated the few gleams of light in it, like the Oliphaunt and the king at the crossroads), and he clearly didn't much enjoy this chapter. Something tells me that he will not like the chapters immediately following, page-turners that they are, but will have a lot of interesting things to say about the post-climatic chapters.

    Unfortunately at the pace these are posted (Mark-Edmond finished the book months ago) we will be watching "The Two Towers" before I get to see if my prediction is right!

    Comment by Daeron - April 5, 2002 @ 4:58 AM

  26. Mark-Edmond seems to be a very bright and cheerful person, who loves fantasy because of the sense of wonder. Hence his love for Lothlorien, and for the Ents, and (for old-timers on the site) for the earlier chapters of Sil, where the Elves are migrating west, then east, and establishing their nations with high hopes.

    I sense that he doesn't like it when wonder in Tolkien's work gets subsumed by darkness. The later chapters of Sil sent Mark-Edmond reeling like a man who has been hit several times in succession, and he nearly threw the book away. He didn't care much for most of the dark Book IV (although he appreciated the few gleams of light in it, like the Oliphaunt and the king at the crossroads), and he clearly didn't much enjoy this chapter. Something tells me that he will not like the chapters immediately following, page-turners that they are, but will have a lot of interesting things to say about the post-climatic chapters.

    Unfortunately at the pace these are posted (Mark-Edmond finished the book months ago) we will be watching "The Two Towers" before I get to see if my prediction is right!

    Comment by Daeron - April 5, 2002 @ 4:58 AM

  27. I also have been printing out ME's articles along with the accompanying comments (including Sil and The Hobbit) and keeping them in a binder. I plan on rereading them with future rereading of LOTR.

    I recently read the Silmarillion for the first time. Having ME's articles to read along with it was actually quite nice (and the comments didn't have too many spoilers). We agreed on a lot of things; he noticed things I missed; and he missed a lot of things I didn't (because I had already read the Hobbit and LOTR). It would be interesting to see what his comments were on a second read through. Maybe it could be called a Tolkien Sophomore.

    Considering all the Tolkien-related books on the market, there would have to be a pretty good market for a book collecting all the Tolkien Virgin articles.

    Comment by James_The_Red - April 5, 2002 @ 6:02 AM

  28. I also have been printing out ME's articles along with the accompanying comments (including Sil and The Hobbit) and keeping them in a binder. I plan on rereading them with future rereading of LOTR.

    I recently read the Silmarillion for the first time. Having ME's articles to read along with it was actually quite nice (and the comments didn't have too many spoilers). We agreed on a lot of things; he noticed things I missed; and he missed a lot of things I didn't (because I had already read the Hobbit and LOTR). It would be interesting to see what his comments were on a second read through. Maybe it could be called a Tolkien Sophomore.

    Considering all the Tolkien-related books on the market, there would have to be a pretty good market for a book collecting all the Tolkien Virgin articles.

    Comment by James_The_Red - April 5, 2002 @ 6:02 AM

  29. Like some of the site's readers, I've been following ME's musings for a long time now. Tolkien must've been quite a writer to be able to invoke such strong feelings from ME whose past chapter articles have been rather sedate, IMO.

    Comment by Amarie - April 5, 2002 @ 12:18 PM

  30. Like some of the site's readers, I've been following ME's musings for a long time now. Tolkien must've been quite a writer to be able to invoke such strong feelings from ME whose past chapter articles have been rather sedate, IMO.

    Comment by Amarie - April 5, 2002 @ 12:18 PM

  31. I have been following this at all so I can't really say, but how does a Tolkien virgin know about Illuvater and Manwe? They're not mentioned in the story.

    Comment by Gastbona - April 5, 2002 @ 2:39 PM

  32. I have been following this at all so I can't really say, but how does a Tolkien virgin know about Illuvater and Manwe? They're not mentioned in the story.

    Comment by Gastbona - April 5, 2002 @ 2:39 PM

  33. He started with The Silmarillion, poor fellow.

    Comment by RunawayRose - April 5, 2002 @ 3:23 PM

  34. He started with The Silmarillion, poor fellow.

    Comment by RunawayRose - April 5, 2002 @ 3:23 PM

  35. http://www.electricpenguin.com/blatherings/lotr/

    This girl had a lot of fun with the book, and her
    comments as she reads are a LOT of fun.

    Comment by RingBearer9 - April 9, 2002 @ 2:06 PM

  36. http://www.electricpenguin.com/blatherings/lotr/

    This girl had a lot of fun with the book, and her
    comments as she reads are a LOT of fun.

    Comment by RingBearer9 - April 9, 2002 @ 2:06 PM

  37. This has been so much fun! I've just discovered this site not too long ago, and began reading Mark-Edmond's chapter reviews of the Hobbit and LOTR (I have not yet read the Sil) with relish! It's been close to 20 years since I first read the Hobbit (right after I got married, my husband introduced me) and then struggled through my first reading of LOTR (I've read it several times since then... I'm on my sixth reading, right now I'm running after Merry and Pippin with Aragorn and co.), but since I've read through these reviews and comments, I've looked at the adventure from different perspectives, noticing things I never thought of before.

    It's hard to believe all these people have been following ME's progress for literally years! I loved to see how certain parts of the book elicited different emotions and reactions, from M-E AND the followers! There were times I wanted to jump in, then I remembered some of these were written a year and a half ago! :-)

    M-E, all I can say is enjoy the ride, and when it's over...get right back on! And maybe we'll see a sequel called, as James_The_Red said, "...a Tolkien Sophomore"

    And for Zaphod, don't these adventures bring out the kid in all of us? Heck yeah, Ents rule!! ;-)

    Here's to the next installment!....oh, now _I_ have to wait!!!! lol

    Comment by Trasmerg38 - April 10, 2002 @ 5:37 AM

  38. This has been so much fun! I've just discovered this site not too long ago, and began reading Mark-Edmond's chapter reviews of the Hobbit and LOTR (I have not yet read the Sil) with relish! It's been close to 20 years since I first read the Hobbit (right after I got married, my husband introduced me) and then struggled through my first reading of LOTR (I've read it several times since then... I'm on my sixth reading, right now I'm running after Merry and Pippin with Aragorn and co.), but since I've read through these reviews and comments, I've looked at the adventure from different perspectives, noticing things I never thought of before.

    It's hard to believe all these people have been following ME's progress for literally years! I loved to see how certain parts of the book elicited different emotions and reactions, from M-E AND the followers! There were times I wanted to jump in, then I remembered some of these were written a year and a half ago! :-)

    M-E, all I can say is enjoy the ride, and when it's over...get right back on! And maybe we'll see a sequel called, as James_The_Red said, "...a Tolkien Sophomore"

    And for Zaphod, don't these adventures bring out the kid in all of us? Heck yeah, Ents rule!! ;-)

    Here's to the next installment!....oh, now _I_ have to wait!!!! lol

    Comment by Trasmerg38 - April 10, 2002 @ 5:37 AM

  39. Here's an interesting thought I had recently, while studying the Scriptures. This is quoted from II Kings xviii.17-36. The situation is, Assyria has destroyed the north kingdom of Israel, has captured most of the cities of the south kingdom of Judah (>"Jew"), and is now besieging Jerusalem, which has made a desperate alliance with Egypt. Sennacherib the king of Assyria has sent this Rabshakeh as his herald to the Jews.
    ________

    17. And the king of Assyria sent Tartan and Rabsaris and Rabshakeh from Lachish to king Hezekiah with a great host against Jerusalem. And they went up and came to Jerusalem. And when they were come up, they came and stood by the conduit of the upper pool, which is in the highway of the fuller's field.
    18. And when they had called to the king, there came out to them Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, which was over the household, and Shebna the scribe, and Joah the son of Asaph the recorder.
    19. And Rabshakeh said unto them, Speak ye now to Hezekiah, Thus saith the great king, the king of Assyria, What confidence is this wherein thou trustest?
    20. Thou sayest, (but they are but vain words,) I have counsel and strength for the war. Now on whom dost thou trust, that thou rebellest against me?
    21. Now, behold, thou trustest upon the staff of this bruised reed, even upon Egypt, on which if a man lean, it will go into his hand, and pierce it: so is Pharaoh king of Egypt unto all that trust on him.
    22. But if ye say unto me, We trust in the LORD our God: is not that he, whose high places and whose altars Hezekiah hath taken away, and hath said to Judah and Jerusalem, Ye shall worship before this altar in Jerusalem?
    23. Now therefore, I pray thee, give pledges to my lord the king of Assyria, and I will deliver thee two thousand horses, if thou be able on thy part to set riders upon them.
    24. How then wilt thou turn away the face of one captain of the least of my master's servants, and put thy trust on Egypt for chariots and for horsemen?
    25. Am I now come up without the LORD against this place to destroy it? The LORD said to me, Go up against this land, and destroy it.
    26. Then said Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, and Shebna, and Joah, unto Rabshakeh, Speak, I pray thee, to thy servants in the Syrian language; for we understand it: and talk not with us in the Jews' language in the ears of the people that are on the wall.
    27. But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?
    28. Then Rabshakeh stood and cried with a loud voice in the Jews' language, and spake, saying, Hear the word of the great king, the king of Assyria:
    29. Thus saith the king, Let not Hezekiah deceive you: for he shall not be able to deliver you out of his hand:
    30. Neither let Hezekiah make you trust in the LORD, saying, The LORD will surely deliver us, and this city shall not be delivered into the hand of the king of Assyria.
    31. Hearken not to Hezekiah: for thus saith the king of Assyria, Make an agreement with me by a present, and come out to me, and then eat ye every man of his own vine, and every one of his fig tree, and drink ye every one the waters of his cistern:
    32. Until I come and take you away to a land like your own land, a land of corn and wine, a land of bread and vineyards, a land of oil olive and of honey, that ye may live, and not die: and hearken not unto Hezekiah, when he persuadeth you, saying, The LORD will deliver us.
    33. Hath any of the gods of the nations delivered at all his land out of the hand of the king of Assyria?
    34. Where are the gods of Hamath, and of Arpad? where are the gods of Sepharvaim, Hena, and Ivah? have they delivered Samaria out of mine hand?
    35. Who are they among all the gods of the countries, that have delivered their country out of mine hand, that the LORD should deliver Jerusalem out of mine hand?
    36. But the people held their peace, and answered him not a word: for the king's commandment was, saying, Answer him not.
    _______

    Now here is the theory. The situation is in many ways similar--the north-kingdom of Arnor is destroyed, the city of Minas Ithil is captured, and Sauron is preparing the last stroke against the last city of the Dunedain. And he sends this mouth of Sauron, not to treat with Aragorn, whose authority he mocks, but rather to taunt his army directly and send it into despair. He also mocks Gandalf's impotence, and by extension the impotence of the Authority which has sent Gandalf. He mocks Aragorn's small army, just like Rabshakeh does (doubting that Judah can muster 2000 mounted soldiers). He offers the Jews "peace" in exchange for the loss of sovereignty, and the loss also of their historic strongholds, which will doubtless be ruled by lieutenants of Assyria, such as Rabshakeh himself. But the Jews, like the Captains of the West, refuse to answer his discourse. One can only imagine the look in their eyes.

    And the next day, the entire overwhelming army was wiped out.

    Now the strange thing about this theory is that Tolkien consciously tried to avoid Mediterranean influence on his work--he considered that its inspiration came from Northern sources. Yet Tolkien, as both a Christian and a philologist, loved the Hebrew scriptures, and even translated most of the book of Job for the Jerusalem Bible. Am I crazy to see a connection here?

    Comment by Daeron - April 11, 2002 @ 10:03 AM

  40. Here's an interesting thought I had recently, while studying the Scriptures. This is quoted from II Kings xviii.17-36. The situation is, Assyria has destroyed the north kingdom of Israel, has captured most of the cities of the south kingdom of Judah (>"Jew"), and is now besieging Jerusalem, which has made a desperate alliance with Egypt. Sennacherib the king of Assyria has sent this Rabshakeh as his herald to the Jews.
    ________

    17. And the king of Assyria sent Tartan and Rabsaris and Rabshakeh from Lachish to king Hezekiah with a great host against Jerusalem. And they went up and came to Jerusalem. And when they were come up, they came and stood by the conduit of the upper pool, which is in the highway of the fuller's field.
    18. And when they had called to the king, there came out to them Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, which was over the household, and Shebna the scribe, and Joah the son of Asaph the recorder.
    19. And Rabshakeh said unto them, Speak ye now to Hezekiah, Thus saith the great king, the king of Assyria, What confidence is this wherein thou trustest?
    20. Thou sayest, (but they are but vain words,) I have counsel and strength for the war. Now on whom dost thou trust, that thou rebellest against me?
    21. Now, behold, thou trustest upon the staff of this bruised reed, even upon Egypt, on which if a man lean, it will go into his hand, and pierce it: so is Pharaoh king of Egypt unto all that trust on him.
    22. But if ye say unto me, We trust in the LORD our God: is not that he, whose high places and whose altars Hezekiah hath taken away, and hath said to Judah and Jerusalem, Ye shall worship before this altar in Jerusalem?
    23. Now therefore, I pray thee, give pledges to my lord the king of Assyria, and I will deliver thee two thousand horses, if thou be able on thy part to set riders upon them.
    24. How then wilt thou turn away the face of one captain of the least of my master's servants, and put thy trust on Egypt for chariots and for horsemen?
    25. Am I now come up without the LORD against this place to destroy it? The LORD said to me, Go up against this land, and destroy it.
    26. Then said Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, and Shebna, and Joah, unto Rabshakeh, Speak, I pray thee, to thy servants in the Syrian language; for we understand it: and talk not with us in the Jews' language in the ears of the people that are on the wall.
    27. But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?
    28. Then Rabshakeh stood and cried with a loud voice in the Jews' language, and spake, saying, Hear the word of the great king, the king of Assyria:
    29. Thus saith the king, Let not Hezekiah deceive you: for he shall not be able to deliver you out of his hand:
    30. Neither let Hezekiah make you trust in the LORD, saying, The LORD will surely deliver us, and this city shall not be delivered into the hand of the king of Assyria.
    31. Hearken not to Hezekiah: for thus saith the king of Assyria, Make an agreement with me by a present, and come out to me, and then eat ye every man of his own vine, and every one of his fig tree, and drink ye every one the waters of his cistern:
    32. Until I come and take you away to a land like your own land, a land of corn and wine, a land of bread and vineyards, a land of oil olive and of honey, that ye may live, and not die: and hearken not unto Hezekiah, when he persuadeth you, saying, The LORD will deliver us.
    33. Hath any of the gods of the nations delivered at all his land out of the hand of the king of Assyria?
    34. Where are the gods of Hamath, and of Arpad? where are the gods of Sepharvaim, Hena, and Ivah? have they delivered Samaria out of mine hand?
    35. Who are they among all the gods of the countries, that have delivered their country out of mine hand, that the LORD should deliver Jerusalem out of mine hand?
    36. But the people held their peace, and answered him not a word: for the king's commandment was, saying, Answer him not.
    _______

    Now here is the theory. The situation is in many ways similar--the north-kingdom of Arnor is destroyed, the city of Minas Ithil is captured, and Sauron is preparing the last stroke against the last city of the Dunedain. And he sends this mouth of Sauron, not to treat with Aragorn, whose authority he mocks, but rather to taunt his army directly and send it into despair. He also mocks Gandalf's impotence, and by extension the impotence of the Authority which has sent Gandalf. He mocks Aragorn's small army, just like Rabshakeh does (doubting that Judah can muster 2000 mounted soldiers). He offers the Jews "peace" in exchange for the loss of sovereignty, and the loss also of their historic strongholds, which will doubtless be ruled by lieutenants of Assyria, such as Rabshakeh himself. But the Jews, like the Captains of the West, refuse to answer his discourse. One can only imagine the look in their eyes.

    And the next day, the entire overwhelming army was wiped out.

    Now the strange thing about this theory is that Tolkien consciously tried to avoid Mediterranean influence on his work--he considered that its inspiration came from Northern sources. Yet Tolkien, as both a Christian and a philologist, loved the Hebrew scriptures, and even translated most of the book of Job for the Jerusalem Bible. Am I crazy to see a connection here?

    Comment by Daeron - April 11, 2002 @ 10:03 AM

  41. Although Tolkien was most strongly influenced by northern myth, without a doubt there are Greek, Roman and Scriptual influences in his work. I cannot say for sure that the Mouth of Sauron was directly influenced by the scriptual passage that you cite. Tolkien may have read it at some point and internalized the narrative elements. Years later they may have bubbled forth when writing the ending of TLOTR. Certainly, the writing style and tone of the book's ending is one of biblical proportions.

    Comment by Gastbona - April 11, 2002 @ 6:24 PM

  42. Although Tolkien was most strongly influenced by northern myth, without a doubt there are Greek, Roman and Scriptual influences in his work. I cannot say for sure that the Mouth of Sauron was directly influenced by the scriptual passage that you cite. Tolkien may have read it at some point and internalized the narrative elements. Years later they may have bubbled forth when writing the ending of TLOTR. Certainly, the writing style and tone of the book's ending is one of biblical proportions.

    Comment by Gastbona - April 11, 2002 @ 6:24 PM

  43. Such a long comment! Anyway, here's mine:

    I have always thought before this chapter that Gandalf as a powerful wizard really need to kick a few orcs. But...All through the story he's not as much use as a bunch of pipeweed, though Aragorn and others trust him that much. Sometimes I do think that Gandalf's power's a bit variable. This time he got blasted through a door by a Balrog and the other time he just kicked his way into Isengard and ripped Saruman of his staff. And always he come untimely...when it comes to the fact that someone needs help, like Eowyn, he's no where to be seen. Other times he'd just pop up unnecessarily.

    Comment by snowlass - April 30, 2002 @ 4:31 AM

  44. Such a long comment! Anyway, here's mine:

    I have always thought before this chapter that Gandalf as a powerful wizard really need to kick a few orcs. But...All through the story he's not as much use as a bunch of pipeweed, though Aragorn and others trust him that much. Sometimes I do think that Gandalf's power's a bit variable. This time he got blasted through a door by a Balrog and the other time he just kicked his way into Isengard and ripped Saruman of his staff. And always he come untimely...when it comes to the fact that someone needs help, like Eowyn, he's no where to be seen. Other times he'd just pop up unnecessarily.

    Comment by snowlass - April 30, 2002 @ 4:31 AM

  45. Determined that the ring was THE Ring.
    Learned the Sauron knew of Frodo and warned him in time.
    Uncovered Saruman's treachery and excaped to tell the tale.
    Diverted some of the Nazgul from Frodo's trail.
    Saved the hobbits from freezing to death on Caradhras.
    Opened the gate to Moria.
    Guided the fellowship through Moria.
    Confronted the balrog to save the party, falling into darkness in the process.
    Collected up Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas and led them to Edoras.
    Removed the poison of Saruman's lies from, and thus restoring to strenght, Theoden.
    Convinced Theoden to confront Saruman at Helm's Deep.
    Rode all night, collecting up the scattered forces of Rohan, bringing them to Helm's Deep at dawn.
    Confronted, and stripped the powers of, Saruman.
    Raced to Minas Tirith to warn Denethor of all that had occured.
    Saved Faramir's life twice.
    Confonted the Witch King at the gates, delaying his entry and preventing him from holding the walls against Rohan (and Aragorn's reinforcements).
    Advising the last march, to distract Sauron from the true danger.
    Throughout all this inspiring and advising others with wisdom and patience.

    I don't think one can't say Gandalf didn't accomplish much.

    As for the last battle, it is likely that, had the ringbearer's quest turned out differently, Gandalf would have remained the last figure standing(most likely over a mortally wounded Aragorn) from the army of the west, surrounded by a black host of orcs, humans, trolls, oliphants, and Nazgul on their steeds. Many would have fallen before him, but in the end he too would be defeated. In all likelyhood captured and brought before Sauron in chains.

    Comment by Shular - June 1, 2003 @ 7:16 PM

  46. Determined that the ring was THE Ring.
    Learned the Sauron knew of Frodo and warned him in time.
    Uncovered Saruman's treachery and excaped to tell the tale.
    Diverted some of the Nazgul from Frodo's trail.
    Saved the hobbits from freezing to death on Caradhras.
    Opened the gate to Moria.
    Guided the fellowship through Moria.
    Confronted the balrog to save the party, falling into darkness in the process.
    Collected up Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas and led them to Edoras.
    Removed the poison of Saruman's lies from, and thus restoring to strenght, Theoden.
    Convinced Theoden to confront Saruman at Helm's Deep.
    Rode all night, collecting up the scattered forces of Rohan, bringing them to Helm's Deep at dawn.
    Confronted, and stripped the powers of, Saruman.
    Raced to Minas Tirith to warn Denethor of all that had occured.
    Saved Faramir's life twice.
    Confonted the Witch King at the gates, delaying his entry and preventing him from holding the walls against Rohan (and Aragorn's reinforcements).
    Advising the last march, to distract Sauron from the true danger.
    Throughout all this inspiring and advising others with wisdom and patience.

    I don't think one can't say Gandalf didn't accomplish much.

    As for the last battle, it is likely that, had the ringbearer's quest turned out differently, Gandalf would have remained the last figure standing(most likely over a mortally wounded Aragorn) from the army of the west, surrounded by a black host of orcs, humans, trolls, oliphants, and Nazgul on their steeds. Many would have fallen before him, but in the end he too would be defeated. In all likelyhood captured and brought before Sauron in chains.

    Comment by Shular - June 1, 2003 @ 7:16 PM

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