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Lineage of the Children of Illuvatar - (through Arwen's relations with Galadriel)

December 23, 2001
Submitted By Armenelos

Arwen's father is Elrond.
Elrond's parents were Earendil and Elwing.
Earendil's parents were Tuor and Idril (Celebrindal).
Idril's father was Turgon (King of Gondolin).
Turgon's brother was Fingon.
Fingon was father of Gil-galad.
Turgon's father was Fingolfin.
Fingolfin's parents were Finwe and Indis.
Finwe was the Head of the Noldor (2nd branch of the Eldar).
Indis' father was Ingwe.
Ingwe was the Head of the Vanyar (1st branch of the Eldar).
Finwe's son with his first wife, Miriel, was Feanor.
Feanor made the Silmarils.
Fingolfin's brother was Finarfin.
Finarfin's 5th child and only daughter with Earwen was Galadriel.
Galadriel is Arwen's 5th cousin.
Earwen's father was Olwe.
Olwe was the Head of the Teleri after his brother Elwe (Thingol) was left in Beleriand (3rd branch of the Eldar).
Elwe had one daughter with Melian the Maia named Luthien.
Luthien had one son with Beren (Erchamion) named Dior (Thingol's Heir).
Dior had one daughter with Nimloth named Elwing.
Elwing was the mother of Elrond and Elros.
Earendil's father was Tuor.
Tuor's parents were Huor and Rian.
Huor's brother was Hurin.
Hurin and Morwen had two children: Turin Turambar and Nienor Niniel.
Rian's father was Belegund.
Morwen's father was Baragund.
Belegund and Baragund were the sons of Bregolas.
Elwing's grandfather was Beren.
Beren's parents were Barahir and Emeldir.
Barahir and Bregolas were the sons of Bregor.
Bregor's descendent of Beor the Old.
Beor was the Head of The House of Beor (Elf-friends).
Hurin and Huor were the sons of Hareth and Galdor (of Dor-Lomin).
Galdor's father was Hador (Lorindol).
Hador's descendent was Marach.
Marach was the Head of The House of Haleth (Elf-friends).
Elrond's wife was Celebrian.
Celebrian was the daughter of Celeborn and Galadriel.
Arwen is Galadriel's granddaughter.

Because Tuor was a Man and Idril was an Elf, the Valar gave their grandchildren the option of either race (Earendil and Elwing sail in the skies with one of the Silmarils guarding the Melkor in the Outer Void until the end). Elrond chose to be of the Eldar, but Elros chose to be a man.

Elros fathered the line of the:

Kings of Númenor
Lords of Andunie
Kings of Arnor, and
Chieftans of the Dunedain in direct descent through the Second and Third Ages

At the end of this is Aragorn (King Elessar)
So Arwen and Aragorn are actually related though they are very distant cousins.

Arwen is the 5th cousin and granddaughter of Galadriel.

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Reader Comments

Gollum-Smeagol

Rating: 5

Fri June 28, 2002 4:18 PM PDT

Gollum-Smeagol

Rating: 5

Fri June 28, 2002 4:18 PM PDT

Galadriel_bluestar

Hurin and Morwen had 3 children, u forgot about Lalaith who died. But nice work still. Oh and Smeagol if u think this is confusing try figuring out the relations in Sophocles' "Antigone"... in the end it turns out that Antigone is her own grandmother by being the sister of the husband of her father's mother....trust me it's a lot more confusing...

Rating: 5

Mon September 9, 2002 12:46 PM PDT

Galadriel_bluestar

Hurin and Morwen had 3 children, u forgot about Lalaith who died. But nice work still. Oh and Smeagol if u think this is confusing try figuring out the relations in Sophocles' "Antigone"... in the end it turns out that Antigone is her own grandmother by being the sister of the husband of her father's mother....trust me it's a lot more confusing...

Rating: 5

Mon September 9, 2002 12:46 PM PDT

Armenelos

well, the lalaith aspect won't really effect the outcome, and some actually emailed me back then when i posted it about there being a third relation of Arwen to Galadriel (which was something brought up in a thread). let's see if i can dig it up (January 8, 2002):

~~~

Hi there. Great post on TolkienOnline about the lineages. Unfortunately I can't seem to post a reply on the sight so I thought I'd send on directly to you.

You noted that Galadriel is Arwen's grandmother through Celebrian, and 5th cousin, through Turgon-Idril-Earendel-Elrond. You might also note that Galadriel is Lutien's 2nd cousin (Thingol's brother Olwe is Galadriel's mother's father). Thus, Galadriel is also Arwen's 6th cousing through Luthien-Dior-Elwing-Elrond.

Finally, Celeborn's grandfather, Elmo, was Galadriel's grandfather's (Olwe's) brother, making Celeborn her 3rd cousin, and, through him, Arwen her 5th cousin.

Therefore, Galadriel is Arwen's grandmother, 5th cousin through Earendil, 5th Cousin through Celeborn, and 6th cousin through Elwing. Galadriel is, or is related by blood to, all of Arwen's grandparents. I suppose Arwen could be seen as the culmination of all the great elven bloodlines, making her choice of mortality all the more bittersweet.

R. McArthur

Rating: 3

Mon September 9, 2002 5:08 PM PDT

Armenelos

well, the lalaith aspect won't really effect the outcome, and some actually emailed me back then when i posted it about there being a third relation of Arwen to Galadriel (which was something brought up in a thread). let's see if i can dig it up (January 8, 2002):

~~~

Hi there. Great post on TolkienOnline about the lineages. Unfortunately I can't seem to post a reply on the sight so I thought I'd send on directly to you.

You noted that Galadriel is Arwen's grandmother through Celebrian, and 5th cousin, through Turgon-Idril-Earendel-Elrond. You might also note that Galadriel is Lutien's 2nd cousin (Thingol's brother Olwe is Galadriel's mother's father). Thus, Galadriel is also Arwen's 6th cousing through Luthien-Dior-Elwing-Elrond.

Finally, Celeborn's grandfather, Elmo, was Galadriel's grandfather's (Olwe's) brother, making Celeborn her 3rd cousin, and, through him, Arwen her 5th cousin.

Therefore, Galadriel is Arwen's grandmother, 5th cousin through Earendil, 5th Cousin through Celeborn, and 6th cousin through Elwing. Galadriel is, or is related by blood to, all of Arwen's grandparents. I suppose Arwen could be seen as the culmination of all the great elven bloodlines, making her choice of mortality all the more bittersweet.

R. McArthur

Rating: 3

Mon September 9, 2002 5:08 PM PDT

Alcarinquë

Good stuff for the most part, but I have a couple of corrections to offer.

First, Marach is Hador's ancestor, not his descendant. Hador is the son of Hathol, son of Magor, son of Malach (Aradan), son of Marach; see p. 147 of the Silmarillion (Houghton-Mifflin edition, green hardback), near the bottom of the page.

Second, Marach is not the "head of the House of Haleth." Haleth is the daughter of Haldad of the Haladin, a people who "did not live under the rule of lords or many together, but each homestead was set apart and governed its own affairs" (p. 145, bottom). The Haladin are the second of the three houses of the Edain to enter Beleriand, and dwell in Thargelion, the realm of Fëanor's son Caranthir; the House of Marach are the third to arrive in Beleriand, and dwell in Estolad in the realm of Amrod and Amras (pp. 142-143). The brothers Húrin and Huor (fathers of Túrin and Tuor, respectively) are the sons of Galdor son of Hador Lórindol (Goldenhead), of the House of Marach. Their *mother* is Hareth of the Haladin, daughter of Halmir son of Haldan son of Haleth's brother Haldar.

Finally, your conclusion that Arwen is Galadriel's fifth cousin is mistaken. This is based on the common misconception that the child of one's first cousin is one's second cousin. That is not correct. First cousins have a grandparent in common; second cousins have a common great-grandparent; third cousins have a common great-great-grandparent; and so on. If you and I are first cousins, then my children are not your second cousins, but your children's second cousins. They are your first cousins once removed. *Their* children--my grandchildren--are not your third cousins; they are your first cousins twice removed and your children's second cousins once removed. They are your grandchildren's third cousins.

If you find all this confusing, perhaps it will be clearer if you look at the genealogy of the House of Bëor on p. 307 of the Houghton-Mifflin Silmarillion. Barahir and Bregolas are brothers, both sons of Bregor. Barahir and Belegund are first cousins once removed, since Barahir's father is Belegund's grandfather. Similarly, Beren and Bregolas are first cousins once removed, since Beren's grandfather is Bregolas' father. Beren and Belegund are second cousins, since they have the same grandfather, Bregor.

Now go down another level in the tree: Dior is Bregolas' first cousin twice removed (Dior's great-grandfather is Bregolas' father); Dior is Belegund's second cousin once removed (Dior's great-grandfather is Belegund's grandfather); Dior and Rían are third cousins (both great-grandchildren of Bregor). Carrying it yet another step further, Dior's daughter Elwing and Rían's son Tuor are fourth cousins; and finally, Elwing and Eärendil, the parents of Elrond and Elros, are fourth cousins once removed (Elwing's great-great-grandfather Bregor is Eärendil's great-great-great-grandfather).

Now to return to the case of Arwen and Galadriel: Turgon is Galadriel's first cousin (both are grandchildren of Finwë and Indis). So Turgon's daughter Idril is Galadriel's first cousin once removed; Eärendil is Galadriel's first cousin twice removed; Elrond is Galadriel's first cousin thrice removed; and Arwen is Galadriel's first cousin four times removed--not her fifth cousin. Arwen would be fifth cousin to Galadriel's great-great-grandchildren, if she had any.

Of course, since as you correctly point out, Arwen is also Galadriel's granddaughter (through her mother, Celebrían), this means that Arwen is her own third cousin twice removed (Finwë and Indis are both her great-great-grandparents, through Galadriel, and her great-great-great-great-grandparents, through Eärendil). I'm sure all this is crystal-clear .

Similarly in Armenelos' post, Lúthien is not Galadriel's second cousin but her first cousin once removed (first cousin to Galadriel's mother, Eärwen, since Eärwen's mother, ). Lúthien's son Dior is Galadriel's second cousin; Dior's daughter Elwing is Galadriel's second cousin once removed; and Elwing's son Elrond is Galadriel's second cousin twice removed (as well as being her son-in-law ). So by this reckoning, Arwen, Elrond's daughter, is Galadriel's second cousin thrice removed.

Note also that Aragorn, being descended from Elrond's brother Elros Tar-Minyatur, first king of Númenor, is thus Elrond's great-great-great-great-...(61 greats)...-grandnephew and Arwen's first cousin 62 times removed.

Simple, no?



 

Sun January 5, 2003 2:51 AM PDT

Alcarinquë

Good stuff for the most part, but I have a couple of corrections to offer.

First, Marach is Hador's ancestor, not his descendant. Hador is the son of Hathol, son of Magor, son of Malach (Aradan), son of Marach; see p. 147 of the Silmarillion (Houghton-Mifflin edition, green hardback), near the bottom of the page.

Second, Marach is not the "head of the House of Haleth." Haleth is the daughter of Haldad of the Haladin, a people who "did not live under the rule of lords or many together, but each homestead was set apart and governed its own affairs" (p. 145, bottom). The Haladin are the second of the three houses of the Edain to enter Beleriand, and dwell in Thargelion, the realm of Fëanor's son Caranthir; the House of Marach are the third to arrive in Beleriand, and dwell in Estolad in the realm of Amrod and Amras (pp. 142-143). The brothers Húrin and Huor (fathers of Túrin and Tuor, respectively) are the sons of Galdor son of Hador Lórindol (Goldenhead), of the House of Marach. Their *mother* is Hareth of the Haladin, daughter of Halmir son of Haldan son of Haleth's brother Haldar.

Finally, your conclusion that Arwen is Galadriel's fifth cousin is mistaken. This is based on the common misconception that the child of one's first cousin is one's second cousin. That is not correct. First cousins have a grandparent in common; second cousins have a common great-grandparent; third cousins have a common great-great-grandparent; and so on. If you and I are first cousins, then my children are not your second cousins, but your children's second cousins. They are your first cousins once removed. *Their* children--my grandchildren--are not your third cousins; they are your first cousins twice removed and your children's second cousins once removed. They are your grandchildren's third cousins.

If you find all this confusing, perhaps it will be clearer if you look at the genealogy of the House of Bëor on p. 307 of the Houghton-Mifflin Silmarillion. Barahir and Bregolas are brothers, both sons of Bregor. Barahir and Belegund are first cousins once removed, since Barahir's father is Belegund's grandfather. Similarly, Beren and Bregolas are first cousins once removed, since Beren's grandfather is Bregolas' father. Beren and Belegund are second cousins, since they have the same grandfather, Bregor.

Now go down another level in the tree: Dior is Bregolas' first cousin twice removed (Dior's great-grandfather is Bregolas' father); Dior is Belegund's second cousin once removed (Dior's great-grandfather is Belegund's grandfather); Dior and Rían are third cousins (both great-grandchildren of Bregor). Carrying it yet another step further, Dior's daughter Elwing and Rían's son Tuor are fourth cousins; and finally, Elwing and Eärendil, the parents of Elrond and Elros, are fourth cousins once removed (Elwing's great-great-grandfather Bregor is Eärendil's great-great-great-grandfather).

Now to return to the case of Arwen and Galadriel: Turgon is Galadriel's first cousin (both are grandchildren of Finwë and Indis). So Turgon's daughter Idril is Galadriel's first cousin once removed; Eärendil is Galadriel's first cousin twice removed; Elrond is Galadriel's first cousin thrice removed; and Arwen is Galadriel's first cousin four times removed--not her fifth cousin. Arwen would be fifth cousin to Galadriel's great-great-grandchildren, if she had any.

Of course, since as you correctly point out, Arwen is also Galadriel's granddaughter (through her mother, Celebrían), this means that Arwen is her own third cousin twice removed (Finwë and Indis are both her great-great-grandparents, through Galadriel, and her great-great-great-great-grandparents, through Eärendil). I'm sure all this is crystal-clear .

Similarly in Armenelos' post, Lúthien is not Galadriel's second cousin but her first cousin once removed (first cousin to Galadriel's mother, Eärwen, since Eärwen's mother, ). Lúthien's son Dior is Galadriel's second cousin; Dior's daughter Elwing is Galadriel's second cousin once removed; and Elwing's son Elrond is Galadriel's second cousin twice removed (as well as being her son-in-law ). So by this reckoning, Arwen, Elrond's daughter, is Galadriel's second cousin thrice removed.

Note also that Aragorn, being descended from Elrond's brother Elros Tar-Minyatur, first king of Númenor, is thus Elrond's great-great-great-great-...(61 greats)...-grandnephew and Arwen's first cousin 62 times removed.

Simple, no?



 

Sun January 5, 2003 2:51 AM PDT

Alcarinquë


Whoops! I inadvertently submitted my previous comment before it was finished. In the third paragraph from the end, the first sentence should read

Similarly in Armenelos' post, Lúthien is not Galadriel's second cousin but her first cousin once removed (first cousin to Galadriel's mother, Eärwen, since Eärwen's father, Olwë, and Lúthien's father, Elwë--usually known as Thingol--are brothers).

Sun January 5, 2003 3:03 AM PDT

Alcarinquë


Whoops! I inadvertently submitted my previous comment before it was finished. In the third paragraph from the end, the first sentence should read

Similarly in Armenelos' post, Lúthien is not Galadriel's second cousin but her first cousin once removed (first cousin to Galadriel's mother, Eärwen, since Eärwen's father, Olwë, and Lúthien's father, Elwë--usually known as Thingol--are brothers).

Sun January 5, 2003 3:03 AM PDT

TheEverBurning

Actually, in the back of the Silmarillion, they have some family trees, and one of them shows how Galadriel is related to Elrond, which would inevitably lead to her relationship with Arwen.

The tree shows that Celebrian is Galadriel's daughter. Celebrian wedded Elrond, and their three children were Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen. This would show that Arwen is actually Galadriel's granddaughter, so all this complication about whether their 5th cousins or whatnot is pointless.

Sorry if I sound rude, but I'm just laying the facts out the way Tolkien did.

Tue June 17, 2003 12:35 PM PDT

TheEverBurning

Actually, in the back of the Silmarillion, they have some family trees, and one of them shows how Galadriel is related to Elrond, which would inevitably lead to her relationship with Arwen.

The tree shows that Celebrian is Galadriel's daughter. Celebrian wedded Elrond, and their three children were Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen. This would show that Arwen is actually Galadriel's granddaughter, so all this complication about whether their 5th cousins or whatnot is pointless.

Sorry if I sound rude, but I'm just laying the facts out the way Tolkien did.

Tue June 17, 2003 12:35 PM PDT

aaranelli

I find all this information rather fascinating...but its kinda hard to follow if you know what i mean......i feel stupid saying this cuz y'all put up some really smart sounding comments...he he he okay im gone sry for wasting anyones time

Rating: 5

Thu December 23, 2004 12:10 PM PDT

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